News: Road tolls replacing car tax

network_engineer · Post by **network_engineer** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:25 am

Hi all,

Regarding the news here, does somebody have more insight into this?

As I read it, from a one time tax, this would be recurring for the lifetime of ownership, a family with two cars living just outside the capital, could be expected to pay up to 1600 EUR in car usage alone!

Did I understand that correctly?

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DMC · Post by **DMC** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:07 pm

How did you arrive at your figure of 1600 euro? I didn't see that mentioned in the article. Presumably you mean 1600 euro per year. So 800 euro per year per car. At 6 cents per km that would be 13333 km per year per car. Are you assuming an average of 13K km per car per year? That may be right, I don't know.

Comparing 800 euro per year to the predicted 7000 euro drop in the cost of new cars, someone buying new would be better off if they keep their cars for less than 9 years. I guess most people who buy new cars change them more often than that, so the proposed scheme would save them money.

For people who buy used cars the cost or saving calculation is not so clear. It depends how much of that 7000 euro finds its way into the secondhand valuation, which depends on the age of the car they buy. There must be a cut-off point where buyers of older cars would be worse off, but where that point is requires more info to calculate.

Of course companies make up a much higher percentage of new car buyers than of used car buyers, so proportionately companies would save more and the main losers would be those private buyers who buy older cars.

The other issue is the short-term effect on used car prices. If you buy a new car and then find the price of a similar new car drops by 7000 euro, your used car will depreciate by considerably more than you expected. Not pleasant.

Flossy1978 · Post by **Flossy1978** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:31 pm

Jesus Christ.

Isn't it enough they want to try and reform the stay at home parental matters now? And also intend to increase income taxes too?

Now this?

It's not freaking worth living in this country if you get your wage and all it does is go to all these stupid extra taxes and costs. And it's for sure they'd not take away that stupid tax we have to pay for having a car.... Which was suppose to be a temporary measure to help out the country during it's bad years. And was not suppose to be permanent.

And what about people who simply can't afford to be buying new cars? And people who have it difficult to get public transport. I live in a suburb of Klaukkala. To get to and from work a day would be about 3 hours or more on two buses and walking, depending on whether the buses even match up.

I am kind of getting sick of this taking more and more away from us, and charging us more and more. My income use to be alright to pay everything. But now after paying basic bills and rent.... I don't have enough to feed myself, my son, buy bensa, clothes etc. Not to mention car costs in general, which thank god I have someone who fixes my car for free. And yet I earn too much to get any kind of financial aid (a whopping something like 10€ over the limit if that). I think I bring in less than an unemployed person after my monthly bills are paid.

This is just getting beyond a joke now.

gfunho · Post by **gfunho** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:24 pm

The think that I don't understand is how (and WHY_) they are going to control the number of km that each car makes to charge a tax for that. There is already in Finland a tax that charges the car users depending on how much they drive. It is the GASOLINE tax. The more you drive, the more gasoline you need, the more you pay in gasoline taxes.

What is the point in forcing every user to report their position to track the number of km that they make?

P.S. And secondarily, what about all the people that bought a car and paid the (roughly) 7000€ tax on top of the price of the car that now is going to be taxed every year on top of that? Is'nt it taxing it twice for the same concept?

P.P.S. What about the cost of installing a tracking device in each car? Who is going to pay for that? What is the need?

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:51 pm

gfunho wrote:The think that I don't understand is how (and WHY_) they are going to control the number of km that each car makes to charge a tax for that.

I haven't checked the details behind this report, but there has been earlier discussion on putting a GPS device on each and every car for that purpose.

DMC · Post by **DMC** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:06 pm

gfunho wrote:P.S. And secondarily, what about all the people that bought a car and paid the (roughly) 7000€ tax on top of the price of the car that now is going to be taxed every year on top of that? Is'nt it taxing it twice for the same concept?

Very good point.

P.P.S. What about the cost of installing a tracking device in each car? Who is going to pay for that? What is the need?

Ah well, you see the eurocrats already have plans for requiring a GPS device in every car to support "Intelligent Speed Adaptation (ISA)". In other words an automatic system to prevent speeding. Big brother is alive and well and coming to a car near you.Take a look at http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safe ... s/cars.htm and various press reports about this over the last 24 hours.

network_engineer · Post by **network_engineer** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:07 pm

Hi,

Short quick reply.

How did you arrive at your figure of 1600 euro? I didn't see that mentioned in the article. Presumably you mean 1600 euro per year. So 800 euro per year per car. At 6 cents per km that would be 13333 km per year per car. Are you assuming an average of 13K km per car per year?

Correct. Rough minimum estimate, just to and fro from work. But this is a bit on the lower side, my wife drives about 40 one-way, i.e. 80 per day. All this without any additional trips to the day care or shops.

Pursuivant · Post by **Pursuivant** » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:18 pm

Thats what you get for voting them ecohippies...

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:09 am

Pursuivant wrote:Thats what you get for voting them ecohippies...

Is the Chairman of Royal Dutch Shell more an 'eco' or a 'hippie' or is it equal weight?

network_engineer · Post by **network_engineer** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:10 pm

! my apologies for venting in a rather foul-mouthed manner

As far as I am concerned, I am voting for PS next time. What are the other choices?

Some, in fact, who am I kidding, the whole bunch of F#%#&#/ B#€%&/()" are not just career politicians, serving their own will and desire. There was a time when I heard Finland had politicians who were in touch with the people, and they looked for the development of the country and its people - brought the country to where it is now. Now, seemingly what we have is a bunch of !"#¤%-brains!

The current generation of politicians including Kat-and-Urpi-whatever have no idea of the common man's difficulties. The winter before last, I made the mistake of taking the Finns-much-adored train to work, I left office at 11 (yep, right in the morning) walked back about ~7 Kms in freezing snow, because the trains were not running. Had to pick up my kids and get home. Did it. Not doing it again.

That being said, who would be a good choice to vote for? Recommendations? If only they could be voted down to less than a single vote, they can retire without any parliamentary seats, stick their fu%&/(%€ heads up their rear ends, and ride the public transport all they want. I seriously hope the next elections would be a complete wake-up call.

Upphew · Post by **Upphew** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:08 pm

network_engineer wrote:That being said, who would be a good choice to vote for? Recommendations?

Next up are EU elections so probably people who want better pay...

ajdias · Post by **ajdias** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:44 pm

Has anyone looked up the side effects of this measure?
F.e. for someone that only needs one car and is looking to buy a second, this works as a subsidy. Wealthy people could be less affected than people with lower incomes.
Possible cheating, people moving to the country side, fraudulent registrations.
Not to mention that this could make for an extra simple tool to raise taxes at the whim of the government. Raise it by 0,01 € and bang - millions of euros of extra revenue. Hey, it's just one cent!

Liam1 · Post by **Liam1** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:23 pm

ajdias wrote:F.e. for someone that only needs one car and is looking to buy a second, this works as a subsidy

There is a post in the living section. Yep rich may pay less than before. "Subsidy" is pushing it.
Extreme example:
Someone who earns 10k / month and buys (or pays tax on posh company car): Tax 50k + 5k pa => 50 + 1 (the new tax) so 43% of income in these taxes
Someone who earns 3k / month and has a car worth about 10k: Tax 7k + 0.5k (approx savings if 15% drop in 2nd hand prices) = > 7 + 1 = 23% of income

Bit of a stretch to say the one who still pays over 40 grand more is being subsidised, even if they are paying less than before. Also the % tax paid is why even saying the tax is regressive forgets the context.

Before anyone jumps on this, note I believe that the rich should pay quite a lot more - it just annoys when the accusation is that they are getting subsidised or not paying the same share as others.

ajdias · Post by **ajdias** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:03 pm

Saw the other thread, thanks.
Truth is that people that owns two cars and uses one will be relieve of a few thousand euros. Since the tax is probably calculated, at least at the beginning, to replace the current system, many people are going to pay more.

Liam1 · Post by **Liam1** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:10 pm

Thats True, but I think only NHL Hockey players own more cars than they use! We're a bit lazy so have two cars because my wife and I go off to work in different directions and have two - nearly three kids - to transport. Maybe manage with one, but would be a royal pain! Think that we are quite typical as nearly all families have both parents working or looking to work.

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