Need help or the unbearable truth

cositagatita · Post by **cositagatita** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:56 pm

Hiya! I am new in Finland Forum and I wanted to join so to post a case/question. I have read some old posts with foreigners asking weird questions and for help or tips about jobs in Finland, and is the answers that have taken me to register and write my own post.
I don't use facebook or twitter, I don't have a blog and I don't chat with people. Well, I don't even have an iPhone, to be totally honest. I used to own an account in Suicide Girls with a total of 11 friends! and that's as far as I got in the walk of texting strangers. So I am v e r y new at this. Please be gentle!

Unfortunately, I was born in an awful country called Venezuela (don't google it, too gross), from which I have always wanted to leave. Four years ago I was finally able to leave for good (as opposed to go live abroad for a couple of months with aunts and uncles) to come to China.

I know, I know... I was somewhat deceived by American and PRC government's waijiao xuanchuan (外交宣传 "diplomatic propaganda"), always making China be seen as a growing place, the new world empire and economy leader or rubbish of the sort; or trying to mix Chinese stuff with Japanese or South Korean culture to intrigue and confuse the ignorant. Anyway, I came here and it took about a year for me to understand that whatever I thought China was (the romantic Pearl Buck like details, the millenarium culture, the mystic and profound understanding of life and philosophy), was no longer existent

. Of course, this is a small and gloomy general line on the topic, shame on me, but at this point, me and China are over. I have given this country so much thought and research that... I'm done, and ready to move on

.
I am married (to a Venezuelan, surely!) and we want to start anew somewhere nice, cold, family-friendly, sparsely inhabited and where crime and corruption is still a matter of indignation (and not something people are used to as a precondition to survival). Is that, perhaps, too much to ask?! (Because if it is Karmic debt I would like to know it right now so I can avoid ending up in India later). I know things have gone beyond hell after the 60's, but... by gods!
So, to avoid the mainland disaster all over again, and in my every day naïveté, I said "Let's go to Finland!", because Finnish people I've met seem much more cheerful and friendly than other Nordic people, because I like Finnish folk metal music, because I memorized the correct pronunciation to all my favorite Värttinä songs, because I have read SO MUCH about pre-christian finno-ugric magico-religious stuff and know a lot about the Tietäjä's role in society, etc etc etc. Please, do notice that I am not saying this is enough information and knowledge on a nation and its culture, nor that I am an expert at anything; I am simply confessing my belief that what attracts you to a certain place/country/people should be used as an encouragement and motivation to learn more and try to go know it better and adapt to it. So, you know, I am legally responsible for my actions (until proven otherwise) but I still live in this fantasy

that if you like a culture, if you have learned at least some about its history, if you get along with its people (not only don't despise/abhor/ignore them but respect them) and you find it easy to learn its language, you may be happy in that place, at least a while, say, a decade minimum?
To obtain a visa and even permanent residence in Finland is fairly easy. Even for a person like me, with the we-don't-want-this-3rd-world-country-people-ruining-our-decent-homeland type of nationality, we could make it and all! They don't actually have you go through an inquisitorial torture to allow you to completely settle there after five years. I tried looking for Chinese teaching jobs (my major), and even Spanish teaching jobs, BUT they want you to have doctoral degrees and years of experience (Doctoral degree, me?! I'll see the day!). I tried looking for translation jobs BUT you need Finnish (obviously). So if you can't speak Finnish, you won't find a job; and if you don't have at least 7000 euros a year you can't go to study (Finnish language and culture) in Finland

Even when they say they require a particular language (for customer service for example) they mean an European citizen!

. I would have to be my own boss or an artist or something to give a

about all these employment requirements so to apply for a self employment visa and go Finland anyways.
Now, I am a girl (sorry, I am

, with all the hormones and crap included). I want to have children (3 if possible), I want them to be relatively glad with their lives at age 10 for example; I want to live where people are not "manimals" and rape, robe and kill each other; and trees grow and you can go to black metal concerts six times a year (Oy! I think that's fair); and where there is no extreme religious or political bias in the system; and as far from my mother as possible

. I am not saying I will hide them from the kind of world we are living in, but I don't want them to lose all hope for humanity so young. I need a safe homey place where Karate is enough for self defense, and where our cynicism won't affect our kids sooo very much.
So, tell me, is it really really really impossible that I will ever live/work in Finland (legally)? Does anybody have any idea/plan I could try to follow, or know someone who would help me (by employing me, and not on the adult industry!!!) while I learn the language???
Thank you!!!

P. S. My English is not perfect. Forgive typos and grammatical mistakes.

**Sponsor:**

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:56 am

I would have to be my own boss or an artist or something to give a about all these employment requirements so to apply for a self employment visa and go Finland anyways.
-
So, tell me, is it really really really impossible that I will ever live/work in Finland (legally)? Does anybody have any idea/plan I could try to follow, or know someone who would help me (by employing me, and not on the adult industry!!!) while I learn the language???

To get a residence permit for being self employed is quite difficult. You need to prove your business will be successful. A good idea is not enough. Your business plan will be scrutinized and if you don't have customers yet, or at least letters of intent, chances for success are low.

Without Finnish or without special skills your chances of finding work are very low.
If you want to leave Venezuela (or China), focus on a country where you can have more success, don't let heavy metal guide your life.

kharnynb · Post by **kharnynb** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:59 am

If spain wasn't such a mess, i'd suggest you go there.

Finland is a great country, but you really need some way in first, be it work or family.
Without knowing what your husband does, and what you qualify for, it's hard to say anything much.
Artists in finland are either very very lucky or very poor.

Best would be to be on the lookout for companies that want chinese speakers
and don't mind that you dont speak finnish, since your english is quite decent.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:21 pm

cositagatita wrote: I am married (to a Venezuelan, surely!) and we want to start anew somewhere nice, cold, family-friendly, sparsely inhabited and where crime and corruption is still a matter of indignation (and not something people are used to as a precondition to survival). Is that, perhaps, too much to ask?! (Because if it is Karmic debt I would like to know it right now so I can avoid ending up in India later). I know things have gone beyond hell after the 60's, but... by gods!
So, to avoid the mainland disaster all over again, and in my every day naïveté, I said "Let's go to Finland!", because Finnish people I've met seem much more cheerful and friendly than other Nordic people

Cold and sparsely populated are objective facts. Low crime rate and corruption compared to most of the world is close to that. When you mention that people a cheerful, probably many wonder if you've also met sober Finns.
'
For you wishing to come here, as you can't really even pretend to be a refugee and have your family with you, the remaining standard reasons are "study" and "employment". Study does not seem to be attractive option for you, so what is left is work.

I tried looking for Chinese teaching jobs (my major), and even Spanish teaching jobs, BUT they want you to have doctoral degrees and years of experience (Doctoral degree, me?! I'll see the day!). I tried looking for translation jobs BUT you need Finnish (obviously).

That most jobs require knowing Finnish isn't a surprise. Requiring a doctorate is (or are you competing with so many non-Finnish speaking Chinese doctors?). Unfortunately there probably isn't jobs here were you'd have an advantage for being fluent both in Chinese and Spanish.

What have you been doing for a work so far- or your husband for that matter?

because I like Finnish folk metal music, because I memorized the correct pronunciation to all my favorite Värttinä songs, because I have read SO MUCH about pre-christian finno-ugric magico-religious stuff and know a lot about the Tietäjä's role in society, etc etc etc.

You should understand that this would have most likely have extremely little relevance in your everyday life.

cositagatita · Post by **cositagatita** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:00 pm

the remaining standard reasons are "study" and "employment". Study does not seem to be attractive option for you, so what is left is work.

Well, it is true that after being a bachelor student here in Shanghai, I said to myself I couldn't be the good homework-doing girl no more. But I reckon I let Chinese pedagogic (as if) style take the best of me. They sort of treat you like a five year old retard, I swear! At the same time, they are unwilling to encourage you to study about anything that may look as if you are "getting to the truth". For example, my thesis was about how Chinese language and its use in the media (of course, I had to write about propaganda, I had to! My mentor allowed it but only if I managed to mix it with linguistics) affects Chinese people's (kids mostly) cognitive mechanism in order to be of a more tame and gullible automat. They certainly almost die, but I got it my way because they probably destroyed it after the dissertation. Besides, my university is a very standard one.
Anyway, what I mean is that when I have the spirit to do something, I do it nonstop and until it's concluded and out of my system. So I thought perhaps I could apply for a scholarship to study in Finland (it was the same to come to China, I still feel for Deng!). What I found was Erasmus Mundus Masters Courses and I was pretty hot about it, because if you are not an European you are likely to receive more money to study and live while you study (and you can of course have a part time job in the meanwhile, at least in Finland, I think...). But it is also a fact that if is not for sciences, then it's about politics: policy making, human rights, gender stuff, central Europe after communism, etc.
I thought "well, you've been hot for this once... you even have made some kind of documentary record about prostitution in China", but these are my temporary hobbies... Can you imagine me in a classroom full of people who is (I am taking a guess here) passionate about these topics and want to make a living in diplomatic stuff?! Just to get to Finland?! That means, not having children but after 29, not having a proper job after 28, and there is NO guarantee that Finnish authorities will just happen to let me stay because I studied there for over a year and worked at 7/11, right? To write another thesis, make more paperwork and essays to get a glimpse of it... I say that is a huge sacrifice of time. I could do it, but... at the same time there are other places, such as Japan and New Zealand. I guess I could go to Finland with a better CV later. This stuff confuses me, I don't think I would make such a good student (in today's fine Europe) and I don't want to put me through a 3 year test for that.
See? Not reluctant, just not confident.

cositagatita · Post by **cositagatita** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:57 pm

don't let heavy metal guide your life.

So, do you have any real idea what it is like to go to a simple ordinary café/bar/bistrot and having to listen to Kesha and Rihanna BS songs?
We call all this electro jazz, techno vallenato, reggaeton, eurodance, american pop crap "pav's music" ("pav" from "pavo", meaning turkey *the animal). It's bloody indecent!

cositagatita · Post by **cositagatita** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:09 pm

You should understand that this would have most likely have extremely little relevance in your everyday life.

So, wait a minute. You are saying that the things I adore and do/read/practice everyday (probably because I have never been chained to a 9 hour job) are of little relevance in, say, Finland. Ok, I think I understand what you mean. Maybe you mean that there's more to do/live/experience/learn/like out of our small bubble. Am I any right here?
Oooops, but here's the thing. I don't know why exactly, I've always relied on what I do like to live. Some things are "newly acquired tastes", like Wagner; and I guess some others are even imposed, like... only buying Thai tuna cans. All my friends (and I have a Japanese, a Chilean and an Afghan friend among them), they all do this, they all live in a world "apart" or made of what they need/like. Especially Abe-san and all the other Japanese.

How is your everyday life then? What does your routine imply? This makes me most curious, truly.

AldenG · Post by **AldenG** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:49 pm

Finnish people I've met seem much more cheerful and friendly than other Nordic people

This sounds like a joke, though I realize you were serious. Finns are the least verbal and least sociable of all the Nordic cultures. The people you've met chose to leave Finland. Perhaps they were too cheerful and sociable to fit in. And maybe the other Nordics you've met were not sociable enough to thrive in their home cultures.

Sweden would be so much easier in so many ways. You'd have a very realistic prospect of learning the language pretty quickly, they've historically been much more welcoming to immigration, there have much better developed resources for learning to assimilate, it's a larger economy with more opportunity, there's more employment you can get requiring only English, and on and on and on.

cositagatita · Post by **cositagatita** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:46 pm

Finns are the least verbal and least sociable of all the Nordic cultures. The people you've met chose to leave Finland. Perhaps they were too cheerful and sociable to fit in. And maybe the other Nordics you've met were not sociable enough to thrive in their home cultures.

Ok, this is most interesting now! I have heard this before, and there's a similar joke among the answers I got for this post.
Now that I have come to think more about this, you lot are probably right. Finnish are shy, I got that right away. Both men and women are, even if they look like Skyrim badasses. I have seen (and this is something, I tell you) Chinese making fun of Finnish people!! You know what does it take for a Chinese to feel like they have nailed/got something before another (foreign) person?! Although they seemed shy, and only willing to speak and share if you looked keen to it and gave the first step, they did end up sharing a lot. I found women to be quite maternal in their shyness towards other women. Lucky for me, I am a 1.60 thin girl so I couldn't possibly intimidate them at all; besides, I am shy as hell too. Whereas Swedish vary slightly in gender: men are (I find) somewhat soft, like a puppy-boy (cute, should not break his heart sort of boy), a bit reserved too; and girls were a bit too tough for my taste, in the scary way "tough", a bit too bitchy sometimes, doing this huge effort to look like they are domineering. I compare (some) Swedish girls to (new) Korean girls; boy, they can be high maintenance!
But before I change the subject, what I wanted to say is that Shanghai changes people, A LOT. If laowai are here as employees or even as a staying-long-&-low tourists (meaning they want to party everyday, find quick sex and sniff stuff, not to really go to museums and mausoleums etc), the way they lead their lives is totally different than in anywhere else. And most foreigners do come here to become 24 hour party people (I saw tourists once, real tourists, I really couldn't believe it. They were american, fat and a bit old... I think they were lost then). I have talked to laowai in and out of their crazy Saturday night trances (behavioral documentary purposes only), and they admit they feel this unknown sensation of freedom and that all they want to do is to shag around and drink and feel awful in the morning, and go shopping and flirt and shag some more. Sometimes they confess they didn't even drink or do coke or dance before coming here, but then BOOM! they were suddenly encouraged to do many things with a perpetual green light and no side effects (according to them at least). That's one of the reasons I can't stand living here, is like everyone has gone bananas... this is like that Matrix movie dancing scene!
btw, "laowai" (老外 = foreigner, alien)

Sweden would be so much easier in so many ways. You'd have a very realistic prospect of learning the language pretty quickly, they've historically been much more welcoming to immigration, there have much better developed resources for learning to assimilate, it's a larger economy with more opportunity, there's more employment you can get requiring only English, and on and on and on.

Well, how do you think I got to know/pay attention to Nordic countries at all? Sweden of course! There was Björk and Immortal before everything, but... Sweden has a stronger soft power. I started pronouncing Swedish stuff thanks to Bergman's movies some years ago, totally enticing!
And then I saw these documentaries made by Swedish people (I think) about how wrong immigration had gone in their country. About all those aloof newcomers that for religious or political or educational reasons were becoming "an issue" to the nationals and authorities, with their tendencies to form gangs and to be hostile; and thus nationals having strong reactions to non-Scandinavian wanting to immigrate.
Maybe not while they are here enjoying themselves in the limelight, but I do notice some discriminatory je ne sais quoi in Swedish people, and I guess they must have their reasons. But... oy! That's just my experience.

AldenG · Post by **AldenG** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:42 am

cositagatita wrote: but I do notice some discriminatory je ne sais quoi in Swedish people, and I guess they must have their reasons. But... oy! That's just my experience.

The entitled mentality of every superpower, even the former ones, I'm guessing.

justaguy · Post by **justaguy** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:56 am

I'm not sure if the OP is serious or not because most of this thread seems like a general observation of Finland and not a very accurate one at that... rather than any sort of real attempt at information. There's a lot of irrelevant information here.

The black and white of it is this.

If you want to LIVE in Finland, ergo. Start a new life. Your options are:

1. Family ties. i.e. marriage between you and a Finnish citizen.
2. Study
3. Work
4. Asylum

1, and 4 are pretty much not open to you by the looks of it.
2, as previously stated would probably be the easiest way but not necessarily what you want and wouldn't cover your family.
3, looks impossible as you don't speak any of the language and don't even understand the country properly.

On top of that, as I stated, you don't seem very 'serious' in convincing us mere folk of your ply. What good are you going to have of convincing people who have seen every type of application on earth and heard every type of story?

I'd say at this point your chances are realistically close to zero for your family, and not so bad for just you alone. Provided you take paths 1 or 2.

cositagatita · Post by **cositagatita** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:54 am

justaguy wrote:On top of that, as I stated, you don't seem very 'serious' in convincing us mere folk of your ply. What good are you going to have of convincing people who have seen every type of application on earth and heard every type of story?

I am supposed to convince you lot of something?! Blimey! What I wrote was an extremely general line (filled with emoticons) on how this was no easy cake. I didn't mean it to be sergeant serious or an extended melodrama.
I thought this was a simple forum, not the immigration office; I could be mistaken though.
I never said I understood the country at all. No matter how much you read, nothing can prepare you to live there truly surrounded by the real people.
I have never been to Finland, or Sweden, or Norway, or Russia (well, that'd be about it!), or Denmark, or nowhere nice for that matter.
And I am guessing that the whole point here is that some people underestimate the efforts they should do to get to the pretended destination. You know why that is? Because we haven't a clue, dear.
It took me over four years to live and breath and poop here in China to start formulating my very bare idea of this place/people/habits etc.

And that's that.

Did you have a fight with you girl or something, hey? [Merely curious]

kharnynb · Post by **kharnynb** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:17 am

I think a lot of us here have heard it all, so we tend to be extreme sceptics(and we all lost our rosecoloured glasses long ago, kela only gives you the generic greycoloured ones).

The problem is, we don't really know you, or your husband, we only know what does and doesn't work here in Finland.
And the little information you gave us, shows that you have an exceptionally minimal chance on being allowed to stay here.

your most marketable skill seems to be chinese language, but without matching finnish skill it isn't very practical here.

Maybe the tourist industry in lapland would have some work for you, but it's all rather seasonal

gfunho · Post by **gfunho** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:40 am

The problem of your claim is that your choice of Finland is somewhat random.

You seem to want to come to Finland because:

1) you like finnish magic
2) you like finnish music and hate Rihanna
3) you met some finns that were open and cheerful

... and you disregard other countries like sweden because they have some discriminatory attitude towards foreigners (again, perceived by you by meeting random swedes)

An the truth is:

1) in 8 years here I have not seen or had contact with any finnish magic nad I really don't think it has any relevance in the social life of finland (Native finns, correct me if I am wrong)
2) It is probably easier to listen here to rihanna than to finnish folk. Most probably when you go to a café, Rihanna might be on the speakers. After all this is a global world.
3) finns that you meet abroad are not typical finns. A typical finn is far from cheerful and welcoming at first sight. Well, maybe it is, but in their on untypical way.

... and the same reasons that you have to disregard sweden or other countries might be applied to Finland as well. You will find in Finland also some "reaction" to inmigration and some feelings about how finnish things are the best. All this happens in every country, but Finland is definitely not shy on saying that is something is "from Finland" might be superior. Half an hour with the finnish TV and you will hear the word Finland/finnish in the 80% of the advertising.

justaguy · Post by **justaguy** » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:45 am

cositagatita wrote:I am supposed to convince you lot of something?! Blimey! What I wrote was an extremely general line

Oh, I thought you were here for answers to a serious question that would hopefully change the life of you and your family for the better?... As taken from your thread title:

Need help or the unbearable truth

Here's the unbearable truth:
You have no chance emigrating with your family into this country.

I thought this was a simple forum, not the immigration office; I could be mistaken though.

We are a simple forum, and your simple answer is:
There is no way to do what you want to do. You either come for studies or marry yourself into Finland, but considering your family has a whole... It's not going to happen, not in any logical sense anyway.
Or you somehow, by the grace of all the gods get granted a permit on being self-employed and somehow prove that you are going to be all-right.

And I am guessing that the whole point here is that some people underestimate the efforts they should do to get to the pretended destination. You know why that is? Because we haven't a clue, dear.

Well now you know where you stand.

Did you have a fight with you girl or something, hey? [Merely curious]

No? And what does this have to do with anything? We're here to talk about you and your situation, not mine. I'm already here and for the most part, I'm doing fine. Thanks for asking.

P.S. I put aside all the other weirdness which other people already mentioned about, music tastes and other what-nots and etc. because like I said, it's irrelevant to the topic of Do you want to move here FOR REAL?
P.P.S.

1) in 8 years here I have not seen or had contact with any finnish magic nad I really don't think it has any relevance in the social life of finland (Native finns, correct me if I am wrong)

Whilst working in a library I came across a Finnish 'taikuri'. For the life of me I wish I could remember his name. Lovely fellow, speaks an incredible 7 languages fluently and travels most of the northern world performing for children. I have videos of him that I recorded myself but I still cannot for the life of me remember his real name or his performing name. Does that count?

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