URGENT HELP - NEGATIVE DECISION

[Mitch19]

I need urgent help/advice.

We applied for a student residence permit,first time.Its taken over 6months.

We just got a decision yesterday and the decion is negative - the reason they are giving is they think the bank statement is forged ,WHICH IS NOT TRUE!

The documents are legit to the dot,nothing was forged AT ALL.

Which is the best approach to this?Should we appeal or make a new application?

Please please advice.

[rinso]

I need urgent help/advice.

We applied for a student residence permit,first time.Its taken over 6months.

We just got a decision yesterday and the decion is negative - the reason they are giving is they think the bank statement is forged ,WHICH IS NOT TRUE!

The documents are legit to the dot,nothing was forged AT ALL.

Which is the best approach to this?Should we appeal or make a new application?

Please please advice.

An appeal can take a long time. It might not be handled before the next school year.
A new application will face the same problem (fake bank statement).
You first have to find out what makes them suspicious about the bank statement and correct that.

[Mitch19]

Hi Rinso,

Thanks.From my understanding, (Tho the decision is in finish) so google translate understanding is,the bank statement I gave was my savings bank account and not my salary bank account, as am currently working and I provided my work contract as well.

So they say they see no transation of salary payslips from the bank account that I gave ,which is abit absurd as I clearly mentioned that it was my savings account.

In this case - Should I make a fresh application and submit my salary bank statement as well?

Thank you for the advice

[rinso]

In this case - Should I make a fresh application and submit my salary bank statement as well?

That looks like a wise decision. Showing a regular income can remove the doubt about your financial status.

[Mitch19]

In this case - Should I make a fresh application and submit my salary bank statement as well?

That looks like a wise decision. Showing a regular income can remove the doubt about your financial status.

In this case - Should I make a fresh application and submit my salary bank statement as well?

That looks like a wise decision. Showing a regular income can remove the doubt about your financial status.

Thank you Rinso.Will give it a shot

[suomynona.yllatot]

I need urgent help/advice.

It is not one or the other. You could consider filing an appeal, and filing a new application. See, these people are not very competent. Short crisp clear sentences. Anything beyond will confuse them

- the reason they are giving is they think the bank statement is forged ,WHICH IS NOT TRUE!
The documents are legit to the dot,nothing was forged AT ALL.

Regarding the process and the justification, you can also consider filing a complaint with the ombudsman if you feel the application has not been dealt with a competent manner. The recent remark in the case of a deportee highlights this.

We applied for a student residence permit,first time.Its taken over 6months.
We just got a decision yesterday and the decion is negative

[/quote]

... bank statement I gave was my savings bank account and not my salary bank account, as am currently working and I provided my work contract as well. So they say they see no transation of salary payslips from the bank account that I gave ,which is abit absurd as I clearly mentioned that it was my savings account.

The key thing to do is to push them for how they arrived at the conclusion. Pull them into a spot. E.g.IF your application clearly stated that this is a savings account and NOT a current account, what caused to
a) to expect salaries into a savings account
b) authorities are expected to ask for information where deemed incomplete, why did they NOT reach out and ask for clarification.


My own perspective is this: These 5hitH3ads behave like this not realising that the students are the reason they have their jobs. It is an attitude problem.

[Mitch19]

I need urgent help/advice.

It is not one or the other. You could consider filing an appeal, and filing a new application. See, these people are not very competent. Short crisp clear sentences. Anything beyond will confuse them

- the reason they are giving is they think the bank statement is forged ,WHICH IS NOT TRUE!
The documents are legit to the dot,nothing was forged AT ALL.

Regarding the process and the justification, you can also consider filing a complaint with the ombudsman if you feel the application has not been dealt with a competent manner. The recent remark in the case of a deportee highlights this.

We applied for a student residence permit,first time.Its taken over 6months.
We just got a decision yesterday and the decion is negative

... bank statement I gave was my savings bank account and not my salary bank account, as am currently working and I provided my work contract as well. So they say they see no transation of salary payslips from the bank account that I gave ,which is abit absurd as I clearly mentioned that it was my savings account.

The key thing to do is to push them for how they arrived at the conclusion. Pull them into a spot. E.g.IF your application clearly stated that this is a savings account and NOT a current account, what caused to
a) to expect salaries into a savings account
b) authorities are expected to ask for information where deemed incomplete, why did they NOT reach out and ask for clarification.


My own perspective is this: These 5hitH3ads behave like this not realising that the students are the reason they have their jobs. It is an attitude problem.
[/quote]


Thanks,I really appreciate.

I actually tried calling them yesterday and they refused to completely explain the details- considering the decision is in Finish!They just told me to look at the blanket decision which is - Fake documents!Quite unfortunate!

How do I corner them to clarify how they arrived at that decision?

Can an new application be processed when an appeal is I progress?

I love the ombundsma n idea.Maybe I need to look into it.

[rinso]

b) authorities are expected to ask for information where deemed incomplete, why did they NOT reach out and ask for clarification.

There is a difference between incomplete information and complete but suspicious information. The authorities are there primarily to serve the interest of Finland, not of a foreign student. And fraud with financial information for study permits has been common, so no incentive to be extra lenient.
That the attitude within Migri is less than optimal is understandable with the budget cuts and upcoming redundancy.

[rinso]

I love the ombundsma n idea.Maybe I need to look into it.

The ombudsman will not reverse the decision. He might give them a slap on the wrist. That would help in an appeal or a new application but it would take time. And if the process takes to long you might miss the next college year. (and then your uni acceptance will become outdated)
Also, it is not certain the ombudsman will find Migri at fault. It is their job to look for suspicious applications. They don't have to prove it is a fraud.

[betelgeuse]

We just got a decision yesterday and the decion is negative - the reason they are giving is they think the bank statement is forged ,WHICH IS NOT TRUE!

The documents are legit to the dot,nothing was forged AT ALL.

Which is the best approach to this?Should we appeal or make a new application?

Residents of most countries can open a Transferwise borderless accounts. Making the funds available in Euros and in hands of a European entity makes it harder for Migri to dispute them.

https://transferwise.com/help/17/border ... ss-account

[Mitch19]

We just got a decision yesterday and the decion is negative - the reason they are giving is they think the bank statement is forged ,WHICH IS NOT TRUE!

The documents are legit to the dot,nothing was forged AT ALL.

Which is the best approach to this?Should we appeal or make a new application?

Residents of most countries can open a Transferwise borderless accounts. Making the funds available in Euros and in hands of a European entity makes it harder for Migri to dispute them.

https://transferwise.com/help/17/border ... ss-account

Am sorry but this might not really help anyone.Then need a transactional account for the bank statement.Not just a one time account,transferwise is only a means of money transfer but not really a bank account per see, so this isnt really feasibly

[Mitch19]

I love the ombundsma n idea.Maybe I need to look into it.

The ombudsman will not reverse the decision. He might give them a slap on the wrist. That would help in an appeal or a new application but it would take time. And if the process takes to long you might miss the next college year. (and then your uni acceptance will become outdated)
Also, it is not certain the ombudsman will find Migri at fault. It is their job to look for suspicious applications. They don't have to prove it is a fraud.

Rinso,in as much as I agree with you about finding suspicious information,I neg to differ on the fact just they are allowed to make decision based on mere suspicion. I mean,Migri has the ability to get in touch with the bank and ascertain the aithenticity of certain documents and not hurriedly make decisions based on suspicion!Such a sorry state of affairs

[rinso]

I mean,Migri has the ability to get in touch with the bank and ascertain the aithenticity of certain documents and not hurriedly make decisions based on suspicion!

The burden of proof is not upon Migri, but on you. I admit it is easy to call it fraud and reject the application. But they are already understaffed and there are more reductions coming. I understand they will not spend time on investigations into foreign banks. (which might refuse to give those pieces of information over the phone)
It is frustrating, but fighting the system is time-consuming and has little chance of success. Better go for a more successful option (new, well-documented application).

[Mitch19]

I mean,Migri has the ability to get in touch with the bank and ascertain the aithenticity of certain documents and not hurriedly make decisions based on suspicion!

The burden of proof is not upon Migri, but on you. I admit it is easy to call it fraud and reject the application. But they are already understaffed and there are more reductions coming. I understand they will not spend time on investigations into foreign banks. (which might refuse to give those pieces of information over the phone)
It is frustrating, but fighting the system is time-consuming and has little chance of success. Better go for a more successful option (new, well-documented application).

Thank you.

Will do that

[suomynona.yllatot]

Here's my take.

I actually tried calling them yesterday and they refused to completely explain the details- considering the decision is in Finish!They just told me to look at the blanket decision which is - Fake documents!Quite unfortunate!

How do I corner them to clarify how they arrived at that decision?

That's the key thing, you don't ask them to validate their views to you. Rather you ask the court to examine their reasoning. Let them try using that reasoning with the court. Migri is forced to respond to the court. Short sentences. Concrete challenges. Make sure you mention that you tried to get additional details. Get proof!

I love the ombundsma n idea.Maybe I need to look into it.

https://www.oikeusasiamies.fi/fi

https://www.okv.fi/en/chancellor/chancellor-justice/

There is a difference between incomplete information and complete but suspicious information.

They cannot *treat* incomplete information and fraudulent information the same way. If I remember correctly, that is covered in the Administrative Act (Hallintolaki)

The authorities are there primarily to serve the interest of Finland, not of a foreign student.

What's your source of this information? For this very reason, I dislike the use of the word "authority", it is more accurate to say "officials", i.e. viranomainen. The law-makers represent the interest of a nation, the officials are bound by the mandate and responsibilities given. "Interest" that conflicts with their mandate and responsibilities, hmmm, give me a heads-up and I'd be happy to send off some complaints.

And fraud with financial information for study permits has been common, so no incentive to be extra lenient.
... That the attitude within Migri is less than optimal is understandable with the budget cuts and upcoming redundancy.

Some people break the speed limit, so fine everybody? Flash the camera at everybody driving the speed limit or even 10 kms lower? Or what's the point being made?

The ombudsman will not reverse the decision. He might give them a slap on the wrist.

It is the same Migri that sent a person to his death. How light is their performance to be taken?

They don't have to prove it is a fraud.

The burden of proof is not upon Migri, but on you.

Heh! So, they can make allegations that they don't have to prove? That's quite an assumption. What if their claim is that the OP/ applicant is an extra-terrestrial that has come over the earth? Or that the OP is a criminal having done heinous crimes? What's the limit? That assumption is simply wrong because if that was case, and their stands/statements/ viewpoints cannot be challenged, then what's the point of laws, courts, etc.?

I admit it is easy to call it fraud and reject the application. ... But they are already understaffed and there are more reductions coming. I understand they will not spend time on investigations into foreign banks. (which might refuse to give those pieces of information over the phone)

The applicant has an application is line with a due process. Their mandate is to evaluate each application on its entirety, easy or not is the applicant's prerogative. Their being understaffed, suffering with diarrhea, whatever is not the concern of the applicant.

Better go for a more successful option (new, well-documented application).

I think filing a new application and an appeal may be done in parallel. A well-formed complaint should keep them on their toes. On the other hand, a new application will cost the same, and if their skills are what I imagine to be, they are looking for a windfall. But if you do file an appeal, make sure you use an separate paper why you are filing this, and justify the circumstances clearly. Unless the process has changed and everything is electronic, whenever I deal with authorities, not only do I staple the corners of the documents, I add page numbering and stick the corners with glue, so papers and justifications don't go missing!


Addendum: A recent article states that Migri did not know what would happen in the future even if the exact same circumstance was described to them. And that they are not at fault for the event of the person's death. And yet they paid, IIRC, 20.000 EUR as compensation! If they are not at fault - why?. Good heartedness? It is good that sentences here are lenient! And they paid it with the tax-payers money! What about the responsible officials? Not even a slap on the wrist? If they had any sense of morals, after Finland was found in breach of Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights, the Ombudsman and the courts must take the officials into account.

But here's the thing: If you've grown up here, you are accustomed to a level of thinking that Finland's government and the officials are unassailable. Indoctrinated that everything is correct. The level of faith is at a level of superstition. And as far as I know, keeping the questions short and objective forcing them into a corner renders them unable to defend their position, but admittance to guilt... sadly, at one sisu stood for grit, today it stands for arrogance.