motivation to learn Finnish, anyone succeeded?

[N_kelee]

I'm just wondering.... everyone seems to be learning Finnish, but has anyone actually learnt it? and I mean has anyone become fully, functionally fluent in it? (to the best extent that one can of course...)
Has any foreigner, who started learning Finnish after the age of 18 (and who has not grown up around the Finnish langauge) ever become fully fluent in Finnish? Anyone? And I don't just mean able to comprehend Finnish, but able to speak it too?
AND
has any foreigner gotten a job where that job requires them to speak only Finnish and no English? (a job other than a cleaning job or bus driving or something similar(no disrespect to anyone with these jobs intended), but a good job or a nice job.)

It's just, I've never heard of or met any such a person. I've met people who've lived in Finland up to 30 years and still can't speak fluent Finnish .... (not due to lack of trying either).

[acwan]

Just my 2 cents worth:
1: No (I've never met anyone fluent in Finnish other than a Finn, but hey maybe one of you will surprise me )
and
2: No (I've never met anyone who needed to know Finnish for a decent job - well, you might have to be able to wing it in meetings when they speak in mostly in Finnish)

And my answers to your next questions would be:
3: Yes (Would it be nice to learn some Finnish?)
and
4: Yes (Is it a load of crock that you have to be fluent in Finnish to get a job?)

[sy]

Well, famous persons in Finland with foreign background I can think of now are: Neil Hardwick and Keith 'Keke' Armstrong. They are both from Britain. Neil has been a scriptwriter for a famous Finnish TV series. He has hosted TV discussion programmes. Keke was a football player before, now he is a couch. He sometimes makes appearance on TV commentating football matches.

At the end of last year and in the beginning of this year on TV1 channel there was a programme called 'Toista maata' (?), where many successful immigrants were interviewed. They all speak fluently Finnish.

On the grassroots level, at the end of September I couldn't enroll to the Level 3 test (of the Yleinen kielitutkinto) on 20 November in Helsinki, Espoo, or Vantaa, because all the test places were booked already! And in the prep course for this test, everyone seems speak Finnish quite well.

[dafd]

Just my 2 cents worth:
1: No (I've never met anyone fluent in Finnish other than a Finn, but hey maybe one of you will surprise me )

Maybe what acwan means is flawless and not fluent. Fluent can mean anything and is often a personal definition. And if the foreigner happens to speak flawless Finnish how do you know they are not a Finn? perhaps you have meet a foreigner with flawless Finnish and jus assumed that they were a Finn.

[Phil]

I have found that the people who are TRULY trying to learn the language are succeeding. But, my guess is that something like only 2% of foreigners are truly trying to learn the language. Just cause you've taken a few classes doesn't mean you're truly trying hard.

Also, once you've learned the language, you'll have adapted much more into society and probably won't be hanging out on bb's like this or associating much with foreigners - so maybe there are more fluent-foreigners than we know!

[Phil]

I have met tons of foreigners and only two that speak Finnish fluently and are a) over 18 when they arrived here and b) were working professionals.

It's an American guy here at Nokia who speaks fluently, he's been here for 7 years. And a Turkish guy who came here because of a job 6 years ago and now speaks it fluently.

[Richard]

I've met people who've lived in Finland up to 30 years and still can't speak fluent Finnish .... (not due to lack of trying either).

Finnish is hard true, but not speaking it after 30 years, is due to lack of trying IMO.

[Deman]

Keith "Keke" Armstrong speaks Finnish better than English nowadays
Has anyone heard him speak English recently? It's terrible.

[acwan]

Just my 2 cents worth:
1: No (I've never met anyone fluent in Finnish other than a Finn, but hey maybe one of you will surprise me )

Maybe what acwan means is flawless and not fluent. Fluent can mean anything and is often a personal definition. And if the foreigner happens to speak flawless Finnish how do you know they are not a Finn? perhaps you have meet a foreigner with flawless Finnish and jus assumed that they were a Finn.

What acwan means is she has yet to meet a foreigner (whom she knows to be foreigners at least) who is able to speak Finnish at all. In fact many of them have lived here for up to a decade or more.

dafd may have a point about the foreigner who looks Finnish being able to speak flawless Finnish, but there's no way I know of to confirm that statement except to go through boards like this and make informal surveys.

I have heard that some foreign women will bite the bullet and learn the language once they start having kids (more out of necessity...)

[bretti_kivi]

i got told yesterday my finnish isn't bad. by a prospective employer, who would be sending me out to customers. a bigger compliment i don't know of, especially as my first lesson was 4 months ago.
that i've been surrounded by the language for 5 years is not really important except that (as others could confirm) my accent's ok and i could string a couple of sentences together before starting the course and i had some vocab.
not learning inside 2-3 years is because they're not interested. you need to be active, you need to be interested, and you need to use it. or there's no point.
of the 30 people who started my present finnish course, approx 6 (me included) are surrounded by the language and are interested in communication at a higher level, whereas most are there for the credits. we are down to 14 regular visitors. in 8 weeks.
i think six months working / training in finnish should see you most of the way through from B1/2 to C1, provided a) you understand the grammar and b) you really do use the language.

fluency, BTW, has been defined. try the CEF classifications...

CEF Levels

A1 - Beginners level - basic knowledge of the language, familiar everyday expressions and simple phrases

A2 - Pre-Intermediate level - familiar with frequently used expressions and conversation on routine matters

B1 - Intermediate level - Can understand the main points of clear standard input on familiar matters regularly encountered in work, school, leisure, etc. Can deal with most situations likely to arise whilst travelling in an area where the language is spoken. Can produce simple connected text on topics which are familiar or of personal interest. Can describe experiences and events, dreams, hopes & ambitions and briefly give reasons and explanations for opinions and plans.

B2 - Independent User (upper intermediate) - Can understand the main ideas of complex text on both concrete and abstract topics, including technical discussions in his/her field of specialisation. Can interact with a degree of fluency and spontaneity that makes regular interaction with native speakers quite possible without strain for either party. Can produce clear, detailed text on a wide range of subjects and explain a viewpoint on a topical issue giving the advantages and disadvantages of various options.

C1 - Advanced level - Can understand a wide range of demanding, longer texts, and recognise implicit meaning. Can express him/herself fluently and spontaneously without much obvious searching for expressions. Can use language flexibly and effectively for social, academic and professional purposes. Can produce clear, well-structured, detailed text on complex subjects, showing controlled use of organisational patterns, connectors and cohesive devices.

C2 - Proficient User - Can understand with ease virtually everything heard or read. Can summarise information from different spoken and written sources, reconstructing arguments and accounts in a coherent presentation. Can express him/herself spontaneously, very fluently and precisely, differentiating finer shades of meaning even in more complex situations.

Bret

[Frypan]

Listen to Keke here...

http://194.252.88.3/yleqweb.nsf/sivut/m ... ntent016A7

direct audio link (47min streamed interview)

http://ra.yle.fi/ramgen/radiopeili/soun ... g250804.ra

--Fry

[mookoo]

I have met a German guy named Rudy who moved to Finland some years ago. He never went to any classes but rather just learned Finnish from the TV. My boyfriend says he speaks really well. He works for FinnPower Oy and is married to a Finnish woman. So I guess it is possible even without classes, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it.

[Great Scott]

It's not that bad, just takes time. I moved to Finland at 22, nearly 23. Within about 3 years I was speaking when I had to. A year or two after that and I didn't need English at all. Before I moved out of Finland I was working at a job where I couldn't use English much, if at all. I didn't even study except for the first 3-4 months I was here. I learned far from perfectly, but I never knew anyone who said I was less than fluent. Hope there is some comfort in that for you and that it gives you motivation.

[mookoo]

That certainly motivates me as I am 22 almost 23

[Great Scott]

Great Mookoo. Only thing I can give you as far as advice then is to:


1: Don't pay too much attention to people who say learning Finnish is impossible. It's difficult, but it's certainly possible to learn.

2: See if you can find a way to simulate necessity. By that I mean that people invariably end up speaking better when they are FORCED to speak by having no other alternative. If you could simulate that in your life, it might help.

3: Learn some grammar at the beginning. When I studied I knew almost no vocabulary and much of the grammar went over my head. Years later though what I had learned helped me immeasurably.

4: Try to go with the book learning first before you give the spoken language much of a thought. Important to know and understand the words, but if you understand their etymology you will be better equipped.

5: Be a parrot when things start coming together. Start paying attention to the phrases you hear from natives. If you can integrate those phrases into your own vocabulary you will be well on your way.


Just an interesting side note. I did not believe this when I heard it at first. In only started believing it when it happened to me. A Finnish teacher friend of mine told me that one of the things that can help a student most is to be away for a few weeks. After about 3 years in Finland I made my first trip home. After that stuff just made sense. I don't really have a rational explanation for it, I just know that it all came together after that. Best of luck!