therese, thank you very much,
it is very usefull to have a case like mine to take the example to the officers.
I am going tomorrow , and I think I will go straight to the option you took, also recommended by other people, but it is interesting to have other options in pocket just in case.
I will take all the options , so thank you to aaaaall of you giving advice!!
Let´s see what happens tomorrow...
cheers!!
Lau
matter of surnames
Re: matter of surnames
This is an interesting thread indeed.
I should add my 5c worth at this point of the original message:
It is not a viable option for an official to "not believe" a client where there is no evidence to contradict what the client is saying. This is a very old principle of public administration. At most, an official may ask for some form of evidence to corroborate the story, assuming that such evidence is available. Evidence does not even necessarily mean an official document (a statement from a witness to the discussion in the embassy or even from another person who has encountered the same problem also counts as evidence).
It is likewise improper to refer a client to a procedure that has already failed because of an obstacle that the client cannot remove. Such obstacles are quite common, particularly in matters involving misunderstandings between officials working for different States. This, BTW, is the entire rationale behind the institution of alien's passports issued by the Finnish authorities. There is an interesting avenue to explore here, but I won't discuss it here.
When bureaucratic impasses of this kind arise a Finnish official has a special legal obligation to advise the client. The official must show more intelligence than a mere function loop in a computer program.
My first instinct when this kind of thing happens is to file a formal complaint to the head of the bureau concerned. For a provincial police station this would probably be the local chief constable (nimismies). The complaint would enquire about the standard of service received. This is really the minimum degree of pressure that can be applied to an official. If it fails to yield a quick and positive result, then there are other avenues available as well.
It is hard to imagine a solution to this problem that would not pass through the Ministry for Foreign Affairs. At the very least, the Ministry for Foreign Affairs should be able to verify that the problem exists. It is then up to the system to find a way round the problem.
There are some interesting constitutional questions involved here too. In principle it is not possible for the duties of a Finnish official (issuing identity cards) to be frustrated by policies that have not been approved by the Parliament of Finland. To allow such a thing to happen would be to undermine Finland's national sovereignty. The ramifications could also be quite far reaching. Would the surname problem impede a subsequent citizenship application? If not, then would the surname of the new citizen be the old name or the new name, and could this name be changed freely after gaining citizenship? Could the same person then have two passports in different names?
Interesting indeed.
daryl
I should add my 5c worth at this point of the original message:
I smell bad service here.lamatervo wrote:hola...
...
They force me to get a new passport with my new surname.
But in my country there is no such law where you can change your name just because you got married, so I called my Embassy and of course they ratified this for me. There is no possibility of getting a new passport with another surname... and even they suggested to me at my Embassy that taking the marriage certificate should be enough, because of course one piece of paper shows that I am the same person.
But... it seems in the Poliisi they don´t believe meand they sent me back again to the Embassy for a new passport.
...
It is not a viable option for an official to "not believe" a client where there is no evidence to contradict what the client is saying. This is a very old principle of public administration. At most, an official may ask for some form of evidence to corroborate the story, assuming that such evidence is available. Evidence does not even necessarily mean an official document (a statement from a witness to the discussion in the embassy or even from another person who has encountered the same problem also counts as evidence).
It is likewise improper to refer a client to a procedure that has already failed because of an obstacle that the client cannot remove. Such obstacles are quite common, particularly in matters involving misunderstandings between officials working for different States. This, BTW, is the entire rationale behind the institution of alien's passports issued by the Finnish authorities. There is an interesting avenue to explore here, but I won't discuss it here.
When bureaucratic impasses of this kind arise a Finnish official has a special legal obligation to advise the client. The official must show more intelligence than a mere function loop in a computer program.
My first instinct when this kind of thing happens is to file a formal complaint to the head of the bureau concerned. For a provincial police station this would probably be the local chief constable (nimismies). The complaint would enquire about the standard of service received. This is really the minimum degree of pressure that can be applied to an official. If it fails to yield a quick and positive result, then there are other avenues available as well.
It is hard to imagine a solution to this problem that would not pass through the Ministry for Foreign Affairs. At the very least, the Ministry for Foreign Affairs should be able to verify that the problem exists. It is then up to the system to find a way round the problem.
There are some interesting constitutional questions involved here too. In principle it is not possible for the duties of a Finnish official (issuing identity cards) to be frustrated by policies that have not been approved by the Parliament of Finland. To allow such a thing to happen would be to undermine Finland's national sovereignty. The ramifications could also be quite far reaching. Would the surname problem impede a subsequent citizenship application? If not, then would the surname of the new citizen be the old name or the new name, and could this name be changed freely after gaining citizenship? Could the same person then have two passports in different names?
Interesting indeed.
daryl
Re: matter of surnames
Weeell... interestign analysis, and now I am giving to you more elementsdaryl wrote:This is an interesting thread indeed.
I smell bad service here.
It is not a viable option for an official to "not believe" a client where there is no evidence to contradict what the client is saying. This is a very old principle of public administration. At most, an official may ask for some form of evidence to corroborate the story, assuming that such evidence is available....
When bureaucratic impasses of this kind arise a Finnish official has a special legal obligation to advise the client. The official must show more intelligence than a mere function loop in a computer program.
At the very least, the Ministry for Foreign Affairs should be able to verify that the problem exists. It is then up to the system to find a way round the problem.
If not, then would the surname of the new citizen be the old name or the new name, and could this name be changed freely after gaining citizenship? Could the same person then have two passports in different names?
Interesting indeed.
daryl
I think bureaucracy is smelling bad always, I have been in many countries and it seems just the word bureaucracy makes it a bad service itself... But I suppose it is something we all have to handle sooner or later.
When I was saying "they don´t believe me" I was ironical, meaning that they were exactly working as "computer program, showing no intelligence" cause all is programmed in these matters, and if a detail is different, the program is shpwing a "fatal error" alarm
I suppose they believed me (the Embassy´s personnel was supporting me, and waiting for the Police calling if nessesary, no problem with that), I was mocking their way of working.
I was told here that they are starting a law soon, saying that the name you have in your ID, passport HAS TO BE the same you have in the Maistraati, so you can change your name, yes, it takes a time and a hundred euros, but the condition is that the name in Maistraati is the name you are going to use everywhere. The problem in my case was that I came here with my argentinian maiden name in passport, and when got married here changed my name, so I was registered in Maistraati as Tervo, and my passport says another thing (and I can´t change my passport condition). The first solution coming to eyes is to go back to my maiden name in Maistraati, and having my IDs with maiden name, but, mine is the first case they have here this kind, so they are meeting with Oulu´s and some other place´s Police to discuss about this, and having a resolution of what I have to do. They are telling me on Thursday, so let´s see how creative they were able to be
and how this story ends.Until then, we can figure out many things... but after the new law of having a UNIQUE name in every registering I guess the answer to your final questions would be No, you cannot have more than one name...
I guess... I guess...
I will write on Thursday telling what happened for solving the mistery
Cheers!!
Lau
argenainen ad aeternum
I can't believe you are the first person in Finland to have this problem!! AMazing.
I married in France and never changed my name in my passport. So when I moved here my Kela card and ID were made out in my maiden name. I don't have a problem with that.
But when my passport expires (next spring) nothing is to stop me applying for a new passport in my married name. I guess I would only have to produce an official translation of my French livret de famille and etat civil (marriage documents). So..... I would then have passport in one name and Finnish ID in another. I doubt very much that the British consulate would insist I went back to the Magistraati....
Do keep us posted, I am also quite intrigued...
I married in France and never changed my name in my passport. So when I moved here my Kela card and ID were made out in my maiden name. I don't have a problem with that.
But when my passport expires (next spring) nothing is to stop me applying for a new passport in my married name. I guess I would only have to produce an official translation of my French livret de famille and etat civil (marriage documents). So..... I would then have passport in one name and Finnish ID in another. I doubt very much that the British consulate would insist I went back to the Magistraati....
Do keep us posted, I am also quite intrigued...
I spent 8 years with a passport that didn't have my real name in it,
thanks to the USA not wanting to bother giving me a new passport
(or was that the year they ran out of money :p). So what did they
do? They stamped my new name in the back of my passport! Right
next to the stamp they stamped in the damn thing extending the passport
from a six-month passport to a full-term passport! Try explaining
that cruddy passport in every airport in the world. Mul on halb pass,
siin on mu perekonnanimi, siin on, etc.
Pretty fricking annoying, but not as flaming annoying as when
they then decided to not bother to give me a new passport after
I ran out of pages for stamps and the Finnish border control threatened
to not let me back in the country if I didn't get a new passport.
The embassy's solution? TAPE new pages (that didn't even match the old
ones!) in the middle of my passport.
It's easy to imagine how much fun it was to use this shoddylooking
thing as identification in Nordea and Sampo! Or anywhere else for that
matter.
I think the greater problem with lamatervo's name is that she's in
the middle of nowhere where they're not too used to foreigners and
the problems their names bring. I mean it too. Once when I was in
Kajaani in the early 1990s, they came out to stare at me and
the person I was with when we were eating there and speaking English
.
Made me wonder what it would be like when we got
to Kuusamo, but they seem to be used to foreigners in Kuusamo
.
-enk
thanks to the USA not wanting to bother giving me a new passport
(or was that the year they ran out of money :p). So what did they
do? They stamped my new name in the back of my passport! Right
next to the stamp they stamped in the damn thing extending the passport
from a six-month passport to a full-term passport! Try explaining
that cruddy passport in every airport in the world. Mul on halb pass,
siin on mu perekonnanimi, siin on, etc.
Pretty fricking annoying, but not as flaming annoying as when
they then decided to not bother to give me a new passport after
I ran out of pages for stamps and the Finnish border control threatened
to not let me back in the country if I didn't get a new passport.
The embassy's solution? TAPE new pages (that didn't even match the old
ones!) in the middle of my passport.
It's easy to imagine how much fun it was to use this shoddylooking
thing as identification in Nordea and Sampo! Or anywhere else for that
matter.
I think the greater problem with lamatervo's name is that she's in
the middle of nowhere where they're not too used to foreigners and
the problems their names bring. I mean it too. Once when I was in
Kajaani in the early 1990s, they came out to stare at me and
the person I was with when we were eating there and speaking English
. Made me wonder what it would be like when we got
to Kuusamo, but they seem to be used to foreigners in Kuusamo
.-enk
totally right... the problem seem to be that the foreigners here are refugees, and the authorities have everything ready for them. It is rare an inmigrant here, as you might have realized, all of you are in the southern areas, from east to west, but south... and I am here as -enk said in the middle of nothing. And this is the first time it happens this here, but for example it happened the same thing to therese, in Oulu.enk wrote:I spent 8 years with a passport that didn't have my real name in it,
thanks to the USA not wanting to bother giving me a new passport
I think the greater problem with lamatervo's name is that she's in
the middle of nowhere where they're not too used to foreigners and
the problems their names bring. I mean it too. Once when I was in
Kajaani in the early 1990s, they came out to stare at me and
the person I was with when we were eating there and speaking English
Interesting the situation having not "real passport" and being trespassing borders... luckily it´s not my situation, despite of having had once a passport made in forein country´s consulate, and it was OLD format, so it was not "real" passport either... and I went to Cuba with that...imagine the military in the migration area in the Airport... the know exactly how each passi looks... and they even called the argentinian consulate in the country I made de passport asking if they have registered me there, and why was I holding an old ID... They kept me couple of hours but after that I had no problems...luckily!!
Penelope, they told me in the Police that new law is coming, and we all need to have the same name in passport and our registered names here. It hasn´t been any problem before because there was not such law, but it seems they (POlice) is having many cases with different names in different IDs, and that´s why they will start this soon. Maybe it´s a good idea to ask in your city just to handle it easy.
I will keep you posted , yes, to see how this mistery is solved, I will get some news on Thursday, so...we have to wait until then
Cheers!!
Lau
argenainen ad aeternum
-
Hank W.
- The Motorhead
- Posts: 29973
- Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 10:00 pm
- Location: Mushroom Mountain
- Contact:
Oh yes, it seems that there is not going to be "understanding" of discrepancies in names:
http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/uutiset/ ... 1981559418
The UVI is getting stroppy over jurisdiction and "multiple identities". I guess next round over having a passport in one name and a KELA card or ID with another will result something closer to a deportation hearing...
http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/uutiset/ ... 1981559418
The UVI is getting stroppy over jurisdiction and "multiple identities". I guess next round over having a passport in one name and a KELA card or ID with another will result something closer to a deportation hearing...
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
The political background to (and real motivation for) these occasional outbursts from the Directorate of Immigration is often not directly specified. You have to take note of certain details that are not always stressed.
In this case I noticed that the key official was Tiina Suominen, who has been Head of the Directorate's naturalisation unit for as long as I can remember. I don't think much of the HS journalist who deals with these topics nowadays, but the terminology of the article consistently refers to ulkomaalaistaustaisia ihmisiä, i.e. people of foreign background. This expression covers naturalised Finnish citizens and their children and grandchildren born in Finland after naturalisation. It would appear that the DoI is interested in playing a role in other Interior Ministry functions concerning these Finnish citizens. If so, then the terms of reference of the DoI will have to be changed quite a lot.
My understanding is that details concerning naturalised Finnish citizens are deleted from the aliens register maintained by the DoI shortly after naturalisation. Details of people of foreign background who become Finnish citizens by birth should never be entered in the aliens register at all.
Another point made in the HS article reflects a remark that I made here a few days ago. It is a long-established principle of Finnish public administration that the statements of a concerned party are assumed to be true until otherwise shown. The DoI seems to be bothered by the application of this principle at local administrative offices.
One of the beautiful things about the Finnish administrative system is the way that everything fits together around these old established principles. Any branch of the administration that ignores these principles is likely to run into conflict with other branches where the principles are respected. We are now seeing this conflict between two branches of the Interior Ministry. Similar conflicts (over principles such as objectivity and proportionality) have arisen in the past between the DoI and the police. It is often amusing and instructive to watch these conflicts unfold and see how they are resolved.
T: daryl
In this case I noticed that the key official was Tiina Suominen, who has been Head of the Directorate's naturalisation unit for as long as I can remember. I don't think much of the HS journalist who deals with these topics nowadays, but the terminology of the article consistently refers to ulkomaalaistaustaisia ihmisiä, i.e. people of foreign background. This expression covers naturalised Finnish citizens and their children and grandchildren born in Finland after naturalisation. It would appear that the DoI is interested in playing a role in other Interior Ministry functions concerning these Finnish citizens. If so, then the terms of reference of the DoI will have to be changed quite a lot.
My understanding is that details concerning naturalised Finnish citizens are deleted from the aliens register maintained by the DoI shortly after naturalisation. Details of people of foreign background who become Finnish citizens by birth should never be entered in the aliens register at all.
Another point made in the HS article reflects a remark that I made here a few days ago. It is a long-established principle of Finnish public administration that the statements of a concerned party are assumed to be true until otherwise shown. The DoI seems to be bothered by the application of this principle at local administrative offices.
One of the beautiful things about the Finnish administrative system is the way that everything fits together around these old established principles. Any branch of the administration that ignores these principles is likely to run into conflict with other branches where the principles are respected. We are now seeing this conflict between two branches of the Interior Ministry. Similar conflicts (over principles such as objectivity and proportionality) have arisen in the past between the DoI and the police. It is often amusing and instructive to watch these conflicts unfold and see how they are resolved.
T: daryl
Hank W. wrote:Oh yes, it seems that there is not going to be "understanding" of discrepancies in names:
http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/uutiset/ ... 1981559418
The UVI is getting stroppy over jurisdiction and "multiple identities". I guess next round over having a passport in one name and a KELA card or ID with another will result something closer to a deportation hearing...
mistery solved:
They were soooo original and creative when finding a solution to my two-surname- problem that they decided I have to change it back to my maiden´s one... just like they told therese in Oulu time ago.
So now I have to fill new forms and pay a hundred euros, plus waiting, for having my old name, the same as in passport.
So this is the way they solve this matters in the north area..maybe they do different in the south...
Hope you don´t have the problem I had...
Cheers!!
Lau
They were soooo original and creative
when finding a solution to my two-surname- problem that they decided I have to change it back to my maiden´s one... just like they told therese in Oulu time ago.So now I have to fill new forms and pay a hundred euros, plus waiting, for having my old name, the same as in passport.
So this is the way they solve this matters in the north area..maybe they do different in the south...
Hope you don´t have the problem I had...
Cheers!!
Lau
argenainen ad aeternum
If you simply accept this, then you are part of the problem and no longer a victim.
Either you were originally lawfully entitled to change your name or you were not. If you were not, then the original change should not have been registered and you have nothing to fix. If you were, then you cannot be penalised for doing so.
I suggest that you at least refer the matter to the Parliamentary Ombudsman.
I am also willing to bet that you were not given this "solution" in writing and that the officials concerned will not give the Ombudsman the same story that they have given you.
Sheesh!
T: daryl
Either you were originally lawfully entitled to change your name or you were not. If you were not, then the original change should not have been registered and you have nothing to fix. If you were, then you cannot be penalised for doing so.
I suggest that you at least refer the matter to the Parliamentary Ombudsman.
I am also willing to bet that you were not given this "solution" in writing and that the officials concerned will not give the Ombudsman the same story that they have given you.
Sheesh!
T: daryl
lamatervo wrote:mistery solved:
They were soooo original and creative
So now I have to fill new forms and pay a hundred euros, plus waiting, for having my old name, the same as in passport.
So this is the way they solve this matters in the north area..maybe they do different in the south...
Hope you don´t have the problem I had...
Cheers!!
Lau
Thank you...yes, actually my mum used to say that I was always the problem when I was a child, never the victim...daryl wrote:If you simply accept this, then you are part of the problem and no longer a victim.
Either you were originally lawfully entitled to change your name or you were not. If you were not, then the original change should not have been registered and you have nothing to fix. If you were, then you cannot be penalised for doing so.
Let me remind you that of course it was lawfull change of surname, but the problem was after that, MY country said we have no laws to change surnames for marriage, so they can´t give me a new passport with new name, and as Hank says I cannot have two names in the world, and I was not penalised, I was said to change my name back cause I have to be named in ONE only way, it happened earlier to therese, and it is going to happen to more in my situation after the new law we have been talking about starts to be valid.
It is quite simple, and quite stupid bureaucratic, of course, but this is the law in this country, and it is not compatible with the law in MY country... and some others...
Of course no national Justice is going to change that...
The most that can be done is to warn people before hand about this matter of surnames in different countries... and I started already...
argenainen ad aeternum