Non finnish family lawyer

brendan_uk · Post by **brendan_uk** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 4:00 pm

Hi,

I am looking for a non finnish, english speaking family lawyer based in the Helsinki area.

I have been using a finish one for the past year or so and I have come to the conclusion that I need one more aware of multicultural differences (especially the role of languages in a childs upbringing) in my case its british/finnish but a spanish/indian/american etc lawyer would be great

Any recommendations greatly appreciated.

Bren

**Sponsor:**

Tom and Jerry · Post by **Tom and Jerry** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 12:49 pm

Hi,

I'v never heard of a non-Finnish lawyer in Helsinki. But there might be one, anyhow, but then he/she will likely not be a family lawyer... Fluency in Finnish and Swedish and a lawyer degree is one of the requirements to become a member of the Finnish asianajajaliitto
http://www.asianajajaliitto.fi

Post by **neil** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 12:55 pm

Hi,

I would try contacting ILAF

http://www.forum-legal.com/ilaf/

dusty_bin · Post by **dusty_bin** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 1:10 pm

Brendan, I have spoken to a friend of mine who may be able to assist you. He can posibly offer what you need.

His email is: available by pm to me

Contact him and he will set up an initial consultation with you.

brendan_uk · Post by **brendan_uk** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 1:21 pm

Hi guys,

thanks for your help, there is nothing specific that I need them for at the moment.

It was just that my current lawyer stated that my lack of finnish "would of course" affect my meeting rights with my daughter.

This statement went right over my head as I cannot see even if I was deaf and dumb that the actual finnish law would restrict my meetings with my daughter based on language or communication problems. I asked her to explain, but she basically swerved the issue and it made me think she was bringing her own cultural expierence to the table, even though it was unhelpful.

So I thought I would post to get some idea of the alternatives out there.

thanks again

Bren

dusty_bin · Post by **dusty_bin** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 1:40 pm

I am not a lawyer, but...

Surely, if youhave a lawyer who you think may have some kind of cultural axe to grind, or is unwilling to explain the legal basis for this knd of statement, then the very least you should do is avail yourself of the services of someone else to clarify the situation. That needs to be done now, not later. If you are in an ongoing process you need to make changes sooner rather than later as decsions and positions taken now may well affect later outcomes.

It may be that your current advisor is correct based upon the law, or in terms of how the law is interpreted, but as you know, law is less interpretive than the UK.(different legal code)

If I were you, I would contact Ross now.

BTW as this is a public forum and this is the guy's personal email address, my post will be deleted very shortly!

brendan_uk · Post by **brendan_uk** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 1:49 pm

The situation is clear, we had a ruling in the vantaa court last year. Which we all agreed upon. That basically is that, unless one of us break that agreement.

My situation my change as I am thinking of moving back to helsinki for 6 months early next year and would like more contact than is currently stipulated, but I am trying to reach an agreement via the social services first, if that isnt fruitfull then I will actively look for a new lawyer as I dont think my current one is looking after my best interests.

I have Ross's email and might be in touch next year if the social services route isnt succesful

thanks again

Bren

PeterF · Post by **PeterF** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:06 pm

brendan_uk wrote: It was just that my current lawyer stated that my lack of finnish "would of course" affect my meeting rights with my daughter.
Bren

Like Dusty I am not a lawyer..but I have had some legal training.. all be it commercial not family..so I know the way Lawyers think and their language...
My guess.. and it is only a guess, is that "your" daughter is still quite young perhaps still learning to talk..your ex maybe has a new partner and they want to bring up "your" daughter at least initialy with the mother tongue of Finnish. "too young to confuse her with a second language" ..yes I know you will say Hevosen paska..but it is typical point of view of some educators/mums/experts....but I would like to add not mine.
Your lawyer is only anticipating this when she warns you that there might be some restriction on your extended access if your ex objects to you confusing her young brain by talking/teaching her English.
Your lawyer is probably in regular contact with your ex's legal people ...they are all in a club/mafia....and has possibly some fore- warning of this possibilty.
If your daughter is already of school age then my guess is very wrong..
The Experts arguement is weaker as educators would then support the concept of multi-languages.

brendan_uk · Post by **brendan_uk** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:17 pm

Your spot on Peter "my" daughter is 2 and abit. Whats with the speach marks, you are starting to sound like my ex!

I dont mind the lawyer putting the point across but if it doesnt have a standing in law (which I specifically asked for) I dont want to know as I see it as her expressing her own (finnish?) concepts of of how a child should be brought up with parents who have different mother tongues.

Sometimes I think they are all in the mafia, which is one of the reasons for me returning to finland while my daughter is still young enough to maybe pick up a few english words and head off any "it might confuse her" comments at a later date.

dusty_bin · Post by **dusty_bin** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:00 pm

That is why you talk to someone like Ross soon rather than later!

He is Malaysian, educated in the UK and Finland and qualified to practice here! Also one of my law teachers in a former life.

PeterF · Post by **PeterF** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:33 am

brendan_uk wrote:Your spot on Peter "my" daughter is 2 and abit. I dont mind the lawyer putting the point across but if it doesnt have a standing in law

It may not have any standing in law..but..it has what the lawyers refer to as a "general acceptance from common practice"...Your lawyer may well know this is a fact/common practice that it is not recommended/allowed that kids in Finland are "taught" a second language until they can at least comprehend their first mother tongue.
For instance if you check the thread in "Families" an American mum is asking about play schools for her 2 year old.
Sara told me that the English school where she and Jessica work have minimum age of 3 years old.
Jessica then explains why.."three year old rule....It is based on the fact that my supervisor wants the children to be able to speak their first language before they start a second"

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 9:14 am

It may not have any standing in law..but..it has what the lawyers refer to as a "general acceptance from common practice"...

- As a sidenote -
And Finns are very bad in giving explanations "why". They just tell you to act in a bizarre manner or just give you a funny look when you explain the outcome wasn't what you expected. The "everyone knows that" - thing.

BAT · Post by **BAT** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:19 am

Ross is excellent, he teaches here at the polytechnic I work at, so I have known him for a couple of years.

Good luck with everything Brendan!

ajdias · Post by **ajdias** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:08 am

Peter Floyd wrote: It may not have any standing in law..but..it has what the lawyers refer to as a "general acceptance from common practice"...Your lawyer may well know this is a fact/common practice that it is not recommended/allowed that kids in Finland are "taught" a second language until they can at least comprehend their first mother tongue.

There are lot of misconceptions going around about bilingualism, often spread by educators, doctors and even speech teraphists, that know nothing abpout the subject. Children can normally cope easily with two or more langauges and usually parents can only fully express itself using his/her's own native language even if able to speak fluently another language.

After one of Cory's (?) posts I found this great website for bi(multi)lingualism: http://www.nethelp.no/cindy/biling-fam.html . Here's a quote from its Myths about bilingualism" section.

"Learning two languages confuses a child and lowers his intelligence."
Old, poorly designed studies done primarily in the United States claimed to show that bilinguals had lower intelligence than monolinguals. Newer research has revealed several flaws in the studies. The most obvious flaw is that the bilingual children were recent immigrants, with poorer knowledge of English and more stressful life situations than their monolingual counterparts. Newer studies with more careful controls have shown that bilinguals are better at some specific tasks, such as language games, but that otherwise the differences between bilinguals and monolinguals are negligible.

"A child should learn one language properly first; then you can start teaching the other."
As in the myth above, this is an old belief based on flawed research. Children who learn two languages in a loving, supportive environment learn them both well. Children who learn two languages in a stressful environment may have language development problems - but so will children learning only one langauge in that same sort of environment.

Besides Brendan, youre a native english speaker. Everyone around you is looking after its english, concerned about its accent, rushing their kids to early english education, the language is daily on the tv, radio, internet.. what greater gift you can pass onto your daugther?

Good luck!

PeterF · Post by **PeterF** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:02 pm

ajdias wrote: Children who learn two languages in a stressful environment may have language development problems - but so will children learning only one langauge in that same sort of environment.

[/quote]
This is excatly the point.."The child is in a stressed situation!..because Daddy is speaking a strange language....plus the fact that she is sure to be confused by having a Daddy who only visits .. i.e the concept of daddy not living with mummy for a two year old is bad enough, and if there is another "Isi" now living with "mutsi"..for a two year old!!! ..lawyers will play on this and this is the arguement that lawers will present.
Plus in Finland family courts always come down on the side of mother's wishes unless the mother is unsuitable to be a parent.
So if Bren's Ex says her daughter is stressed and confused by the two language problem..the court will side with her.
It is the lower risk option on a small childs development.
The childs wellware is the #1 priorty.
This is what Bren's lawyer is not explaining..as Hanks says Finns are useless at answering the question Why?..
Ross will probably say the same..that Äiti rules, what she wants is what happens when it is a two year old. When she is older then the rules are more flexible.

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