How did you solve this?

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Icebreaker
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How did you solve this?

Post by Icebreaker » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:47 am

Hello, first time poster, long time lurker. This one's going to be a bit lengthy, but I think my situation is a bit different than most. =P

First off, I'm a citizen of the USA, graduated out of high school last June. It's long been my goal to get my degree in a Finnish university/polytechnic (the best out of several options I had), but I figured that instead of diving right in I'd better go there and see if I liked the country first. So I signed up for an exchange program and, well, here I am. I've been living in Helsinki since August and I'll be here until July. I've got to say that the country is, overall, quite nice (could've used some more snow this winter, though) and I could definitely see myself living and studying here for a couple more years... who knows, maybe I'll take a wife, get divorced, and end up like those poor guys I see huddled over their Lapin Kultas in Kallio. =P

Preferably I'd like to study computer science (information technology, whatever you want to call it) in an English language degree program. Now, actually my Finnish is pretty good for day-to-day operations (I've gone a couple weeks without speaking any English now :D), but I'm not sure I would want to conduct my education in it yet - maybe I can do some graduate studies in Finnish after I have a couple more years with the language. The only institutions which offer undergraduate degree programs in English are (to the best of my knowledge) the Finnish polytechnics.

I applied using the joint admission page today, worked fine. First preference was EVTEK, since it seems to have the most advanced program in IT, what with being in Espoo so close to TKK and Nokia. And I'm already quite familiar with that part of Finland, so that's a plus. My second option is Oulu Polytechnic, which also seems to have a respectable program. I've actually seen the campus in Raahe while staying with a friend of mine in Oulu, and it seemed nice. It was tough fending off the wolves once I got out of Kehä III, though. :(

My third and fourth choices don't matter so much, since if I don't get in to the first two I'll go back to the States and study there. I'm already accepted into several good universities there (Milwaukee School of Engineering, University of Wisconsin Madison, Arizona State), so that's no problem - but it would be disappointing going back home empty-handed. Although really, taking the entrance exams for Finnish polytechnics won't be a problem since I already live here, and I've seen the exams from previous years - should be a piece of cake. I'm exempt from the English portion of the exam as far as I can tell, having completed secondary school education in the USA.

So! Those of you reading this might be wondering what the point of this long post is if everything's going so swimmingly? Well, the only problem is - I don't know how to fund it! D:

My exchange year here was already quite expensive, I had to cash out my life insurance and I've run through all my job savings already. Getting €6,000/yr is going to be quite tough - I can convince my parents to help with some of it, but I can't expect them to pay the whole amount for 4+ years.

So that really leaves me with either a scholarship or a loan. And since no scholarships exist for this sort of thing (as far as I know - care to differ?), that leaves me with student loans. Problem is, that federal loans *do* exist for US citizens enrolled abroad, but they are only doled out to those attending approved schools - which in Finland is limited to the University of Helsinki and the Helsinki School of Economics: neither of which I wish to attend.

A private loan would be fine - really the only requirement is that I would be able to defer payment until after I get my degree, so I have a chance to make some money in order to pay it back - but in the US, at least, all private loans are only available to schools which are already on the federal approved list!

So I guess this post is directed towards foreigners (particularly Americans, but other options are fine) who have attended/are attending school here. How did you pay for it? And, if you got a loan, where did you get it from?

For any Finns reading this, do you know of any options I can take in Finland to get some money? It's a long shot, but if any student loans exist from private institutions (banks, etc.) that don't require a Finnish co-signer (I've got a lot of friends here, but I don't want to ask them that big a favor), please let me know. But I'm pretty sure no such thing exists.

I know, I know, leaving money as the last concern was a bit dumb. But everything else is in place, it'd be a shame to head back home simply because I don't have the dough.

Thanks for reading,
-Ice



How did you solve this?

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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:20 am

Well, the scholarships are not there as studying is "free" as we all very painfully know.

However on a cursory look:
Milwaukee School of Engineering
Undergraduate Level Tuition
Full-time Tuition (12-19 credits)
Tuition per quarter $8660

University of Wisconsin-Madison
Tuition: state resident $6000
nonresident $20,000
Room and board: $6920


So what were you convincing your parents about that 6000 euros again?

With your language abilities (if it is not just boasting) you'd have better employability skills though than a lot of your fellow anglophone students.
Not that getting a job is a said thing.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.

Icebreaker
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Post by Icebreaker » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:36 am

True enough on those fees, BUT I have a free ride to those universities I listed (mostly because of this.) And even if I didn't, it would be possible for me to get student loans from the federal government, plus a lot of schools have financial aid departments as well, etc. etc...

About employment, wellllllll, maybe. It would still be quite difficult to get a job however, and in an ideal world I would be able to concentrate fully on my studies, without needing to take a job. It's an option I'll have to consider, though.

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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:42 am

Well, in that case, if the loans for the approved schools was an option, I'd haul my ass to the HSE admissions, they have "computer science" in there and in English. Now once you are in somewhere you can apply to go study this & that in another university. I mean my ex-boss is doing his masters in Hanken (The Swedish School of Economics), and his thesis is on LDAP - purebred IT stuff. So don't look at the box, look whats in it.

I've got a BBA from Helia, and I ain't done a bookkeping course...
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.

Icebreaker
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Post by Icebreaker » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:17 am

Interesting, I hadn't thought of that. I had looked at the HSE program before and it wasn't really what I wanted... I'm looking for something more equivalent to an "engineering" degree and I'm much less interested in the business side of things. (I'm a sucker for theoretical computer science, btw... I've been hacking in Scheme for years now and my current language of choice is Haskell, so yes, I'm a bit of a nerd. :oops:)

But if you're telling me I can supplement (or even replace) some of the business courses with something like these... or possibly these or these, that would be great. Although I'm not sure which courses would be eligible (for example, is university -> polytechnic an option?), I can go down to the admissions office for HSE sometime this week and have a talk with them. Using HSE as a "springboard" (since they're an approved school) and choosing classes from other universities is an option I hadn't considered - hopefully I understood you correctly and I'm thinking in the right direction. :wink:

Thanks Hank, this might be just the avenue I need. :)

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sinikala
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Re: How did you solve this?

Post by sinikala » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:50 am

Icebreaker wrote:Problem is, that federal loans *do* exist for US citizens enrolled abroad, but they are only doled out to those attending approved schools - which in Finland is limited to the University of Helsinki and the Helsinki School of Economics: neither of which I wish to attend.
A quick comment would be to ask yourself why HY & HSE are approved and EVTEK / Oulu Polytechnic are not?

If you want to study IT to the sort of standard that you are going to find at University of Wisconsin Madison (I know the standard there at least in Chemistry is pretty high, IT is surely similar). Madison at least has reputation which EVTEK / Oulu Polytechnic do not.

If you are at the level where you could go to Madison, and you want to study in Finland then you should be thinking about TKK or HY. All of course IMHO.

Strange though that TKK is not approved in the US.
Hank W. wrote:University of Wisconsin-Madison
Tuition: state resident $6000
Room and board: $6920
= p

So what were you convincing your parents about that 6000 euros again? (EVTEK)
Although money doesn't buy success, insert TKK for Madison and it might look like good value for money.
Image

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Hank W.
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Re: How did you solve this?

Post by Hank W. » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:42 am

sinikala wrote: Strange though that TKK is not approved in the US.
My sentiments exactly. Maybe its because they have their own nuclear reactor? :lol:
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.

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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:01 pm

Icebreaker wrote: But if you're telling me I can supplement (or even replace) some of the business courses
Yes, well, you don't go tell that when you go apply of course. :lol:

Once you are in, you generally have a few "must do" subjects and then a number of "must pick up X subjects of these"; more or less towards your major and your minor. Now what it looks like is that the Bachelors degree has a little bit of each and then the masters has the specializations. Once you are in, one can apply to study from the "X subjects of these"... But its more design/management oriented than 'hacking'

For purebred hacking (Haskell? oh fac :lol:) you'd need to apply for the Helsinki Uni maths department where they have computer science. And there they'll dump algorithms on your head. Thats as theoretical as it can get.

I think the HSE would be, as it is in English, an option, and it doesn't do bad for a nerd to study business. Now imagine you team up with half a dozen other nerds and have a business so who is going to rip them off? You or some clean-shaven yankee used car salesman :twisted: What is it generally the business geeks don't know sh*t from bananas and the computer nerds can't be "let out of the cage" to the customer, so the place where the best jobs lie are in the "missing link between the monkey and the man" strata where you can interprete the geek<=>nerd as otherwise the customer will get what they ordered but its not what they wanted.

You probably could apply for some courses at the TKK (those guys came to HELIA to study at the SAP/R3 lab as HELIA has the only one here in the south)...

So its sort of many options out there. I mean EVVK-tech or Stadia is your engineering without that much theory, but you don't find the deep guruism there. Its more like slam-bam-thank-you-ma'am. Come to the next Pub Quiz and tell me whats it you want from life and I can tell your fortune.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.

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Post by enk » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:43 pm

Hank W. wrote:Come to the next Pub Quiz and tell me whats it you want from life and I can tell your fortune.
And if you're good at the music round, we love you already :lol:

-enk

Icebreaker
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Post by Icebreaker » Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:33 pm

For purebred hacking (Haskell? oh fac :lol:) you'd need to apply for the Helsinki Uni maths department where they have computer science. And there they'll dump algorithms on your head. Thats as theoretical as it can get.
Actually that sounds pretty good. Oftentimes when I'm solving some problem (for example, I've solved more of these than I'd like to admit), I always know there's a better algorithm than the one I come up with. Some formal training in the area would be great. (;

And it's not all theoretical where I'm concerned (we used to say, "you can't spell 'awesome' without ASM"). I'd also like to take some electrical engineering or hardware design courses - again, something approaching that elusive "computer engineering" hybrid of software engineering and EE. So while business classes combined with some IT might be a good idea career-wise... well, honestly I'd rather do balls-to-the-wall computer science/engineering, sit back in the cage and let someone else worry about it. :wink:
If you are at the level where you could go to Madison, and you want to study in Finland then you should be thinking about TKK or HY. All of course IMHO.
Of course, I'd love to study at TKK or HY. But they don't offer bachelor's in English... I have a friend in TKK who claims the admissions office said I can take the entrance exam in English, but I have no idea what it's the entrance exam *to*. I guess I'll have to add TKK admissions to my list of places to visit and have a chat...
Come to the next Pub Quiz and tell me whats it you want from life and I can tell your fortune.
Just tell me when and where. :wink:

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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:46 pm

Pub Quiz is always the 1st Wednesday of the month at 19 in Angleterre...
so 7.2, 7.3, 4.4, 2.5, 6.6 ...

And then if you are a troglodyte, then this is for you
http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/instr.engl/fsa/

The admissions test includes calculating and some coding IIRC.

And the application time is now, so it does not hurt to apply...
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.

Icebreaker
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Post by Icebreaker » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:17 pm

Done and mailed.

Let's see what happens...

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Post by Hank W. » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:56 pm

I got my pinkies up and eyes crossed for you 8)
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.

Icebreaker
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Post by Icebreaker » Sat May 26, 2007 4:15 pm

Oh dear, haven't been here for a while...

Anyway, I just took the exam for the computer science program at HY yesterday. It was just about the kind of test I'd expect (although in a somewhat different format from years past, if the previous year's exam is any indication) and made me feel good about the program I'm trying to get myself into. =P Three questions (of which you had to answer two) - two based on algorithms (genetic and partition sort) and one essay based on material given... I took the two algorithm questions since I've been reading the Big Book. Didn't have to break a sweat. (:

I'm heading back to the States on Monday for the summer at least, I'll call in to the Faculty of Science on June 25th or so to hear the results... I'm pretty confident, but we'll see. I just thought maybe you guys would like an update, though you've probably forgotten by now. =P

(Ah yeah, sorry for not making it to the Pub Quizzes... Angelterre is just too expensive for me! I do pop in there every once in a while for a pint of Newcastle, but at €5.60 per, I don't do that very often.)

javla_java0
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Post by javla_java0 » Sat May 26, 2007 5:20 pm

Go private lender.

Call WellsFargo of BankOfAmerica or whoever your bank happens to be and explain your situation to them.

6,000€ is nothing to them. If your parents do want to help, get them to cosign on the loan. Thus, start building for yourself a credit portfolio.


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