Does a 6 year old have their own mind?

[bm50]

A divorced couple having joint custody of their 6 year old child, is the child old enough to choose which parent they want to live with? Are they still a child at 6 years?

[annB]

The child has to be 12. before he/she can decide,

[meplusthree]

When the custody is shared 50% of the time with each parent how is the child allowance payment split ? and how or who makes the decision?

[bm50]

My problem is that my ex wife lives abroad and she is saying that my 6 year old son is old enough to make up his own mind on where he wants to live.

[sammy]

My problem is that my ex wife lives abroad and she is saying that my 6 year old son is old enough to make up his own mind on where he wants to live.

I doubt it. 6-year-olds are not mature enough to make such far-reaching decisions on an independent basis. As cory said, a child (in normal circumstances) will feel loyalty to both parents, but can not fully grasp the 'meaning' or emotional depth of his choices in issues like this. Just as a simplifed example, it might be that mommy buys him more candy than daddy and thus he "chooses" mommy, if he "needs" to decide.

Of course I do not know all the details, only you and your family does, but this sounds like a classic case of an adult using the "child card" to his/her own advantage, ie. in order to avoid confronting unpleasant feelings in a situation where she -in this case- would need to make difficult choices and compromises herself.

[suomalainen2007]

Divorce is always painful.Even good Divorces.For kids and for adults.
To ask,WHOM he would choose is putting huge pressure and expectation
on a little child.They are barely coping with the changes happening in
their lives and carrying the pain inside and then someone says...CHOOSE !

That is sad.That is hard.That is pretty dramatic.

Which one of the parents is coping best ? Which one is closest to
the child ? Who does the child go to when in pain ?

The most important thing is stability.Long term stability.

Usually,the kids stay with Mother.That seems only natural.
But,sometimes,mothers are not coping and then father raises the
child.I guess....you guys have to look at the big picture.

But....be fair...dont expect a child to be and act like adult.

He or she is not an adult.Divorce is painful.Nothing makes it easier.
Not even choosing a parent.

[littlefrank]

'is the child old enough to choose which parent they want to live with?'


My daughter was 6 on Sunday and there is no way I would ask her to choose between living with me and my ex, it's not a question of whether she is mature enough to answer that question (which she isn't) but it's one hell of a thing to dump on a child of any age, because basically you're asking "who do you prefer, me or your mummy?" I'm just thankful that my daughter enjoys her visits to me, that she tells me she loves me and that she seems reasonably happy with the access arrangements.


My daughter did actually say she wanted to come and live with me this weekend, but I think that had more to do with the 'remote controlled Herbie car' the 'musical piano' the...

[bm50]

Thank you all for your comments, most grateful.
Yes a difficult situation, my ex on the phone a few days ago said to me that my 6 year old son, whilst on holiday at her home in Norway, was always saying to her that he wants to live with her and that he is old enough to decide what he wanted, she even said to me to bring him to the phone and ask him and i will see what he wants.
Of course i know she wants him there but she is not thinking about him just herself, he is happy here at school etc, has friends speaks finnish his life is here in Finland but she wants to destroy all that.
She wants him to go there at christmas thats ok by me maybe for a week, but i know she will want to stay longer but i am concerned about this because of the problems that i have had with my son since he returned from his summer holiday with her, also if he goes at christmas i am afraid that she will keep him there in Norway because as she believes he is old enough to decide where he wants to live.

[littlefrank]

Do you have a custody agreement?

Also sometimes my daughter will say things that she thinks will please her mother or me.

http://www.om.fi/Etusivu/Julkaisut/Esit ... to?lang=en

[bm50]

Well i have an agreement made by the court on the divorce paper which states that i have joint custody of my son with my ex and that he lives with me.
On the ministry of justice page it says that, a child cannot be taken or retained in a foreign country without the consent of the person who has custody of the child. But do they mean joint or sole custody?

[littlefrank]

' Well i have an agreement made by the court on the divorce paper which states that i have joint custody of my son with my ex and that he lives with me.
On the ministry of justice page it says that, a child cannot be taken or retained in a foreign country without the consent of the person who has custody of the child. But do they mean joint or sole custody?'

Then your position is straight forward, you have a court agreement stating the child lives with you and you have joint custody, this agreement can only be revoked by the court and the only way they would change this agreement is if they felt the child was in danger physically etc, otherwise the court would be extremely reluctant to change this decision.

[TrishPaakkonen]

Is Norway part of the Hague Convention ( Treaty?).If so they are legally bound to fully co operate if she does not return your son....unless of course she claims you are abusing your child. In that case, an investigation is opened and months may pass before any resolution.

[TrishPaakkonen]

To answer my own question:

Norway

DISCLAIMER: The information in this flyer relating to the legal requirements of specific foreign countries is provided for general information only. Questions involving interpretation of specific foreign laws should be addressed to foreign legal counsel.


I. PROCEDURES

The Ministry of Justice and Police, the Department of Civil Affairs, has been designated as the Central Authority for Norway for the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction. Being an administrative authority, the Ministry itself has no jurisdiction to make a decision on whether the child should be returned or not. This jurisdiction belongs entirely to the courts.

Immediately upon receiving an application from the Central Authority of another contracting state, the Ministry will give the application a preliminary examination, to ensure that it is in conformity with the formal conditions laid down by the Convention, and that the documents required in Article 8 are enclosed. If that is not the case, the application will immediately by returned to the requesting state for completion, or the lacking information will be asked for more informally by telephone or telefax to the requesting state. If the documents are not in English or Norwegian, the transmitting authority will be asked to provide a translation.

When all formal requirements are met, the application will immediately be sent to the competent local court for decision. The Act of 8 July 1988, Section 18, paragraph 1, lays down that the enforcement provisions of the Children''s Act of 8 April 1981 and the general provisions of the Enforcement of Claims Act of 26 June 1992, shall apply correspondingly to decisions on the return of children.

The courts may also adopt an interim decision for the period up to the final judgment in the case, and may even adopt an interim decision before proceedings are instituted. According to the Act of 8 July 1988, Section 18, paragraph 2, the judge may order that the Child Welfare Authorities shall take over custody of the child until the Hague application is finally decided, but this seldom happens.

According to the Act of 8 July 1988, Section 16, paragraph 1, the courts are to act quickly and without delay in dealing with applications for return of abducted children from another contracting state. If a court has not decided an application within six weeks of the application''s filing, it shall report to the Central Authority of the requesting state the reasons for the delay -- if the applicant or requesting state so demand.

NOTE: Norway has made a reservation according to Article 42 of the Convention, provided for in Article 26, third paragraph. Norway will therefore not be obliged to assume any costs referred to in Article 26 that result from the participation of legal counsel or advisers, or from court proceedings, except insofar as those costs may be covered by Norway''s system of legal aid and advice. An application for legal aid can be forwarded through the Ministry to the competent authority (the County Governor). Please note that the authority will do a means test of the application, based on the applicant''s gross, net and capital income.

Norway has also made a reservation to Article 24 of the Convention. The Ministry will read and answer correspondence only in English. Correspondence in other languages will have to be translated by the submitting authority.

APPEALS: A decision by the local court can be brought before the High Court (Appeals Division) by either party. A decision by the High Court (Appeals Division) can be brought before the Supreme Court if the Court agrees to hear the case.

II. DISCOVERING THE WHEREABOUTS OF A CHILD

This question will be dealt with in close cooperation with the central police authorities.

III. CONTACTS

1) The Office of Children''s Issues is the U.S. Central Authority for the Hague Abduction Convention.

Office of Children''s Issues
SA-29
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20520-2818
Phone: (202) 736-9090
Fax: (202) 312-9743

Internet
http://travel.state.gov


2) Central Authority for Norway

Address
The Royal Norwegian Ministry of Justice and Police
Department of Civil Affairs
PO Box 8005 DEP.
N-0030 Oslo
NORWAY

Telephone
011-47-2224 9090

Telefax
011-47-22-242722

E-mail
postmottak@jd.dep.no


The above was posted on a US government site. I know Finland is part of the Hague Convention. Apparently so is Norway......

[bm50]

I looked on the ministry of justice page earlier and i did not see Norway on the list of the Hague convention treaty.
So maybe if she can prevent my son returning to Finland then the agreement made with the finnish court ,that she signed, is worthless, it does not mean anything!
I have sent an email to the social worker at the family law social office in Helsinki, she was the person who advised me about the court agreement, i have asked her if my ex can keep my son in Norway if he goes there for christmas, i am waiting her reply.

[littlefrank]

'However, Finnish decisions on custody and right of access cannot without special measures be enforced in a foreign state. The enforcement of a decision in a foreign state normally requires the existence of an international convention on the subject. The most important of these is the so-called Luxembourg Convention, that is the European Convention on Recognition and Enforcement of Decisions concerning Custody of Children and on Restoration of Custody of children, where the Contracting States undertake under certain conditions to recognise and enforce decisions given in other Contracting States. ***Due to special arrangements between the Nordic countries Finnish decisions on child custody and right of access are, as a rule, enforced in Sweden, Norway and Denmark in accordance with the Convention on Recognition and Enforcement of Nordic Decisions in the field of Civil Law (Treaty Series 56/1977).'***

http://www.om.fi/Etusivu/Julkaisut/Esit ... to?lang=en