rinso wrote:
"Starting his own business is a good one. You don't need much investments and if you can live of your salary the profits are less important"
What kind of business may someone do in Finland? I suppose there are businesses that go well and other that are bankrupted..
PLEASE ADVICE! - IT JOB POSSIBLE?
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Hank W.
- The Motorhead
- Posts: 29973
- Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 10:00 pm
- Location: Mushroom Mountain
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Wise woman. A lot of (stupid) foreigners start a business. As they think it gets them rich. The lazy (wise) Finns do not start a business as they know what the tax office does to you. Theres a lot of foreigners with very small ass (after tax office bites it off). Finns have big ass and sit on it. 
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.
> its not that there are plentiful jobscompanies in Finland to research them here
That depends where you are.
> Many startups, with little capital..and very few big ones
So what? Not everyone wants to work for a big (or small) company. I have worked for both and see pros and cons for both. Anyway, just one big company, by definition, provides a lot of jobs.
> So Unless you have a niche management experience, your best bet is to fire on all cylinders or crash n burn..
Fine, if that works for you, go for it. Your approach can work. I have sort of tried it myself - I went to a "jobs fair" type of event in Helsinki once, and hit as many companies as I could. From that I got 3 job interviews and 2 job offers. On the whole, though, that isn't my style.
> BS...What experienced IT manager from outside Finland has had much luck finding a job handed over to them without the whole shabang..
Me for a start. I also know other non-Finns in project management positions who got their jobs without personal contacts, based on their experience.
> you dont seem to see things from the top, do you?
I don't know what you mean by that. My experience is not at boardroom level management if that is what you mean.
> Define real management experience? a degree?
Don't you know the difference between qualifications and experience?
> ultimately if Jukka says that ....
According to your logic I should never have even bothered applying for the jobs I have got here. Or the ones I have turned down. You spouting negative, give-up-now advice for ever and a day cannot change my practical exprience that it IS possible to get such jobs here. I have done it myself so I know it is possible. I have done it more than once so I know it isn't blind luck. I have seen others do it so I know I'm not the only one.
That depends where you are.
> Many startups, with little capital..and very few big ones
So what? Not everyone wants to work for a big (or small) company. I have worked for both and see pros and cons for both. Anyway, just one big company, by definition, provides a lot of jobs.
> So Unless you have a niche management experience, your best bet is to fire on all cylinders or crash n burn..
Fine, if that works for you, go for it. Your approach can work. I have sort of tried it myself - I went to a "jobs fair" type of event in Helsinki once, and hit as many companies as I could. From that I got 3 job interviews and 2 job offers. On the whole, though, that isn't my style.
> BS...What experienced IT manager from outside Finland has had much luck finding a job handed over to them without the whole shabang..
Me for a start. I also know other non-Finns in project management positions who got their jobs without personal contacts, based on their experience.
> you dont seem to see things from the top, do you?
I don't know what you mean by that. My experience is not at boardroom level management if that is what you mean.
> Define real management experience? a degree?
Don't you know the difference between qualifications and experience?
> ultimately if Jukka says that ....
According to your logic I should never have even bothered applying for the jobs I have got here. Or the ones I have turned down. You spouting negative, give-up-now advice for ever and a day cannot change my practical exprience that it IS possible to get such jobs here. I have done it myself so I know it is possible. I have done it more than once so I know it isn't blind luck. I have seen others do it so I know I'm not the only one.
In Suomi!!!! as compared to where this person(s) is/are coming from.DMC wrote:> its not that there are plentiful jobs/companies in Finland to research them here
That depends where you are.
Which part of many small companies here and very few big ones did you not understand? Oh I forgot....few and many are akin to small and big... No one said anything about working for a small company or a big one...But Given the nature of work mentioned in this thread..Give me some examples of a small startup needing an IT manager?> Many startups, with little capital..and very few big ones
So what? Not everyone wants to work for a big (or small) company. I have worked for both and see pros and cons for both. Anyway, just one big company, by definition, provides a lot of jobs.
Exactly...It might not be your style or your way of getting a job or the first job..but then before you start systematically..Its gonna be a while..and I didnt mean to go and start attending job fairs... If you are in IT management, you should by now at least know how to "job hunt"..rather a way of approaching a company and who..> So Unless you have a niche management experience, your best bet is to fire on all cylinders or crash n burn..
Fine, if that works for you, go for it. Your approach can work. I have sort of tried it myself - I went to a "jobs fair" type of event in Helsinki once, and hit as many companies as I could. From that I got 3 job interviews and 2 job offers. On the whole, though, that isn't my style.
and you seem to forget the fact that not many are as lucky as you to get interviews and 2 job offers let alone 1 interview...
and I bet that you can count them with your fingers...Me for a start. I also know other non-Finns in project management positions who got their jobs without personal contacts, based on their experience.
I dont mean anything if you cannot understand the difference between a manager, a management position, a low level management position, a mid-level management position and a high level management position..let alone a boardroom..I don't know what you mean by that. My experience is not at boardroom level management if that is what you mean.
Oh Please educate me and the rest here as to what they mean for you alone seem to know the difference whatsoever that is gonna help this person find a job..> Define real management experience? a degree?
Don't you know the difference between qualifications and experience?
An example is not a logic...go do your high school math properly...> ultimately if Jukka says that ....
According to your logic I should never have even bothered applying for the jobs I have got here. Or the ones I have turned down. You spouting negative, give-up-now advice for ever and a day cannot change my practical exprience that it IS possible to get such jobs here. I have done it myself so I know it is possible. I have done it more than once so I know it isn't blind luck. I have seen others do it so I know I'm not the only one.
and it is who who applied the logic to an example..
I am giving a practical example of what Jukka's boss would do..
and there is a big difference between spouting negative and being practical....You are one of the lucky ones out of many a large number who have left Finland for greener pastures..
There are always possibilities here as long as you understand where you stand and understand the probability of landing a job when you jump of the plane..
Now, I wonder why Linus left to Cali??
I wonder why the CTO of a big name company is working outta Finland..
I wonder why the Forest Industry experts here are going outta the way to consult companies in Brazil....
2.9 net is about 4.3 brut. It is average salary for PjM in Helsinki in a large IT company. It is sufficient for basic live. With the same skills in US you could probably have $100K, as entry salary. Nowadays, salaries in Helsinki rapidly grow, in a half of year you could ask 10% increase and it is in Euros, which is 40% more the dollars.cristina_b wrote: My salary would be around 2900 euro net. I'm not sure that it is enough for 2 persons.
>> DMC wrote:
>> > its not that there are plentiful jobs/companies in Finland to research them here
>>
>> That depends where you are.
>>
> In Suomi!!!! as compared to where this person(s) is/are coming from.
Well we don't know where the OP is from, and it makes no difference to the above statement. But take a drive around Espoo and look at all the IT companies. There are plenty there - certainly enough to start a job search. Do you think there are many more in the "young EU country" where the OP originates? Do you really need thousands of companies to stand a chance of getting one job?
> But I haven't seen anyone telling her to give up now.
So when you wrote: "BS...What experienced IT manager from outside Finland has had much luck finding a job handed over to them without the whole shabang.." you were actually offering encouragement?
> Which part of many small companies here and very few big ones did you not understand?
I didn't understand why you thought that was important. That's why I asked "So what?". You haven't explained.
> Oh I forgot....few and many are akin to small and big...
No you have that wrong. few and many are akin to big and small. You got it right before, so not only did you forget, you got it backwards. I still don't see why it is worth mentioning though.
> No one said anything about working for a small company or a big one...
So again I am left wondering why you thought it was important enough to mention in the context of finding a job.
> But Given the nature of work mentioned in this thread..Give me some examples of a small startup needing an IT manager
One company I worked for in Espoo was originally started by a group of graduates who had studied together. They developed tailer-made electronic systems. From day one they had an IT manager.
I was offered a job by a dot-com as software development manager.
So there are two just from my own experience.
> and I bet that you can count them with your fingers...
Yes I can. So what? I can also count on my fingers the number of forestry workers I know. So what should I conclude about the number of forestry workers in Finland?
> I dont mean anything
I'm starting to realise that. You write things that are meaningless and don't explain when asked what they mean.
> Oh Please educate me and the rest here as to what they mean for you alone seem to know
Here you go again. You don't know something so you assume others don't know.
> An example is not a logic...go do your high school math properly...
It is you that needs to re-study logic. One counter-example is sufficient to disprove a general claim. Remember that from school?
> I am giving a practical example of what Jukka's boss would do..
And I am giving real counter examples to demonstrate that your theoretical model cannot be universally applied.
>> > its not that there are plentiful jobs/companies in Finland to research them here
>>
>> That depends where you are.
>>
> In Suomi!!!! as compared to where this person(s) is/are coming from.
Well we don't know where the OP is from, and it makes no difference to the above statement. But take a drive around Espoo and look at all the IT companies. There are plenty there - certainly enough to start a job search. Do you think there are many more in the "young EU country" where the OP originates? Do you really need thousands of companies to stand a chance of getting one job?
> But I haven't seen anyone telling her to give up now.
So when you wrote: "BS...What experienced IT manager from outside Finland has had much luck finding a job handed over to them without the whole shabang.." you were actually offering encouragement?
> Which part of many small companies here and very few big ones did you not understand?
I didn't understand why you thought that was important. That's why I asked "So what?". You haven't explained.
> Oh I forgot....few and many are akin to small and big...
No you have that wrong. few and many are akin to big and small. You got it right before, so not only did you forget, you got it backwards. I still don't see why it is worth mentioning though.
> No one said anything about working for a small company or a big one...
So again I am left wondering why you thought it was important enough to mention in the context of finding a job.
> But Given the nature of work mentioned in this thread..Give me some examples of a small startup needing an IT manager
One company I worked for in Espoo was originally started by a group of graduates who had studied together. They developed tailer-made electronic systems. From day one they had an IT manager.
I was offered a job by a dot-com as software development manager.
So there are two just from my own experience.
> and I bet that you can count them with your fingers...
Yes I can. So what? I can also count on my fingers the number of forestry workers I know. So what should I conclude about the number of forestry workers in Finland?
> I dont mean anything
I'm starting to realise that. You write things that are meaningless and don't explain when asked what they mean.
> Oh Please educate me and the rest here as to what they mean for you alone seem to know
Here you go again. You don't know something so you assume others don't know.
> An example is not a logic...go do your high school math properly...
It is you that needs to re-study logic. One counter-example is sufficient to disprove a general claim. Remember that from school?
> I am giving a practical example of what Jukka's boss would do..
And I am giving real counter examples to demonstrate that your theoretical model cannot be universally applied.
Okay enough of your Naive thinking DMC...
Dont start offering rose colored glasses to everyone so that they can feel and think positive as compared to the reality that happens here...which many others apart from me have posted..
Just because you are lucky doenst mean others are
As a foreigner without Finnish language skills ( Or for that matter more importantly the Finnish work culture skills) you stand a better chance of finding a job in a bigger company ( dure to their international nature) as compared to a small one...and so do the math..theres your explanation..
I dont care about the opportunities in a young EU country as the person is coming to Finland to find a job and not in a young EU country...
As for encouragement, cristina_b has a pretty good salary to support her family until her hubby finds work ( and that was the point that it could take a long time to find work)..and its better he faces the reality of not getting any responses from many employers..and having to hear directly from interviewers that he lacks Finnish Skills when he already knows that..
Hmmm I really wonder what you know about forestry workers in Finland and their history..and what they have done to survive, innovate and move on..
I really dont care what you think about my opinion as it is mine and I am trying to paint a realistic picture from my perspective on helping to find an IT manager's job for cristina_b's husband...
Dont start offering rose colored glasses to everyone so that they can feel and think positive as compared to the reality that happens here...which many others apart from me have posted..
Just because you are lucky doenst mean others are
As a foreigner without Finnish language skills ( Or for that matter more importantly the Finnish work culture skills) you stand a better chance of finding a job in a bigger company ( dure to their international nature) as compared to a small one...and so do the math..theres your explanation..
I dont care about the opportunities in a young EU country as the person is coming to Finland to find a job and not in a young EU country...
As for encouragement, cristina_b has a pretty good salary to support her family until her hubby finds work ( and that was the point that it could take a long time to find work)..and its better he faces the reality of not getting any responses from many employers..and having to hear directly from interviewers that he lacks Finnish Skills when he already knows that..
Hmmm I really wonder what you know about forestry workers in Finland and their history..and what they have done to survive, innovate and move on..
I really dont care what you think about my opinion as it is mine and I am trying to paint a realistic picture from my perspective on helping to find an IT manager's job for cristina_b's husband...
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cristina_b
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:53 pm
shrecher wrote:
"2.9 net is about 4.3 brut. It is average salary for PjM in Helsinki in a large IT company. It is sufficient for basic live"
What are the fees that an employee must pay in Finland? I have looked on a official site, but sincerly I am a litle bit lost...
When you are talking about "basic life" what do you mean? Could I for exemple go twice of month to a restaurant, drink a beer every evening, make a holiday 3 weeks / year abroad?
"2.9 net is about 4.3 brut. It is average salary for PjM in Helsinki in a large IT company. It is sufficient for basic live"
What are the fees that an employee must pay in Finland? I have looked on a official site, but sincerly I am a litle bit lost...
When you are talking about "basic life" what do you mean? Could I for exemple go twice of month to a restaurant, drink a beer every evening, make a holiday 3 weeks / year abroad?
generally, those "fees" arecristina_b wrote: What are the fees that an employee must pay in Finland? I have looked on a official site, but sincerely I am a litle bit lost...
1) taxes
2) perks given by the company like a company phone, internet connection, company car
3) Employment Pension fee
4) Unemployment insurance
5) union membership ( Optional if you choose to be a member of an unemployment fund, which you SHOULD do before you join your work so it ll take 18 months before it becomes effective and starts protecting your work)
6) Any employment options similar to (2)
7) Any Daily allowance fee if you have that
Make sure that you ask as many questions to find answers for the things that "everyone knows but no one tells you, like
1) Joining an unemployment fund ( low cost, €45-75 per year, some legal help) vs joining a union ( high cost, around 200-250 €/year, legal help, networking contacts etc)
2) your vacation agreement with your employer ( how many days you get depends on your years of service, but you can negotiate an early vacation option if you can do it now..
3) relocation negotiation( transport, etc etc that you should have negotiated beforehand or if you have the possibility to do it now.)
4) Rental/housing help ( temp. housing etc)
5) Car rental leasing help ( considered taxable income)
6) flexibility of working hours,
7) overtime agreement ( extra pay or fixed pay or flexible pay )
yearly/annual Bonus agreement if any offeredetc
A dinner for 2 in a "nice" restaurant will run you around 50-75€ without wine..( 100-125€ with wine)When you are talking about "basic life" what do you mean? Could I for exemple go twice of month to a restaurant, drink a beer every evening, make a holiday 3 weeks / year abroad?
Beer is 4-6€ per glass on average.in a bar
Depending on where you stay..( HEL area rents are more expensive as compared to suburbs that you can rent a bigger place for same rent but offset that by use of a car ), think about these costs
1) housing ( close to €1000 in HEL/Espoo area close to downtown for a 75-95 sqm apt)
2) electricity/heating/water/trash ( depends on size of home and use of heat, water etc
3) insurance ( rental or own housing, health, life etc )
4) car+fuel /transportation( bus, metro, train, flights)
5) Food ( groceries)
6) clothes + household appliances+tv+ entertainment etc etc
7) Misc fees ( unemployment, magazines, books, subscriptions, clubs etc etc)
telephone+ internet connection ( if not included with salary)9) Savings
BTW, generally, for the 4 weeks of vacation that you get, you also get paid extra for that..( I meant generally)..so you get 13 months salary instead of 12 ( of course how you get paid depends on your company, normally you get paid 3 weeks salary extra in june or July or Aug and 1 week in Dec or Jan or Feb)
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cristina_b
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:53 pm
Thank you, raamv, for all these informations. They are really very useful if you think about day to day life. I can see that the living costs are pretty high..
For the fees, you have listed all I tink but you didn't give me the value for these fees. Because when I read this long list I have the impression that I will pay all my salary for fees...
For the fees, you have listed all I tink but you didn't give me the value for these fees. Because when I read this long list I have the impression that I will pay all my salary for fees...
Google "Guide for Foreigners Working in Finland" which gives some amounts in %..generally Those fees are included in the amount subtracted from the brutto which then gives you the netto..( so in your case some of the fees are included in that already deducted, except probably union fees, perks etc)cristina_b wrote:Thank you, raamv, for all these informations. They are really very useful if you think about day to day life. I can see that the living costs are pretty high..
For the fees, you have listed all I tink but you didn't give me the value for these fees. Because when I read this long list I have the impression that I will pay all my salary for fees...