What is with this forum?!!!!!

[Hank W.]

If you deal in heads, then there have more than your fare-share of messed up foreigners here in Finland.

Yes, and they all post here, we're a big therapy pool

[Hank W.]

it might even be counter productive.

Well, if I was surfing the uranus.fi for cv's and read some of the anti-finicism blather off the English discussion, I would require DNA tests of applicants to be sure I hired only Finns

Then again if I read Suomi24.fi I'd move the whole company to the Outer Hebrides

[raamv]

yeah like employers are actively scouting for talent from those CV's..

The fact is that No matter how much of reality you drum up those people before they start coming here..they still want to hear what they want to hear..

[Hank W.]

yeah like employers are actively scouting for talent from those CV's..

Well, we're hiring someone with WebFOCUS talent

[Hank W.]

Ah, see now when I was in Dublin I got "tourist photos" of a high street with shop windows full of "help wanted" ads. Here in Helsinki its almost they had "piss off" ads... There is no such thing as a steady 9-5 job
url=http://www.hs.fi/kaupunki/artikkeli/Jat ... 5229974927

Should I here curse americans or the eejit using ää and öö

[redpockets]

I am in dire need of some consolation. I have been going out with my girlfriend for near on 4years now. I, in Ireland, she, Helsinki! I am truly and utterly blown away with the difficulty, nay, stubborness to welcome and accomodate foreigners into finnish society within this forum. I am very well eductaed and have worked successfully in my field for years, yet the phrase (usually from the ultra negative and anti-foreign poster HANK) "not without fluent and complete finnish language skills". What is the problem???? It amazes me that hard working people who are going to contribute to Finland are just dismissed and put on a negative road. This forum should actively encourage and develop links instead of driving wedges between "them" and "us". Think the rationale behind this forum is lost if all it does is discourage and generally take the piss out of people who are trying for what ever reason to live in Finland. Surely your sense of power would be best used to help and encourage us. I for one am getting kind of tired of the immature and unhelpful sarcastic comments thrown out. Get your act together guys.....

Now i see, what it is with the forum

[redpockets]

thanks however, i don't need to ask anything any more~

[Travmies]

90% of posters are wanting english speaking jobs or searching for help to be integrated without finnish. Please tell me what work or what directions are given to help these people? I really don't see any..its "speak Finnish or don't come"!!! Is that the extent of the wisdom on this site?

Just out of curiosity, how would you -as someone who's working in addiction counselling if I'm correct - provide advice and wisdom to this person:

Keskiviikko
21.2.2007 klo 20.40 / larafine / Yleistä

Omituista miten paljon psyyke vaikuttaa siihen, millanen olo on myös fyysisesti. Ennen päivän uintitreenejä oli niin hiton vaikeeta taas! Näin unia liittyen aiheeseen ja koko aamun olikin sit muka niin paha olo: tuntu siltä, et reflat (=vieroitusoireet) olis tullu takasin ja kaikesta sai väännettyä kamaan liittyviä ajatuksia. Onneks ihmisen endorfiini vie tuollaiset paskat veks. Täytyy sanoa, ettei ihan näin pahaa päivää oo ollu ainakaan pariin viikkoon.

Kiitos paljon kaikille kommentteja lähettäneille; ette uskokaan miten hyvältä tuntuu lukea kannustavia kommentteja!!Viitaten nihamin kommenttin, niin kyllä riippuvuus kuin riippuvuus aiheuttaa samanlaisia fiiliksiä. Tupakoivat ja sen lopettaneet ovatkin yleensä niitä, jotka ymmärtävät tietyt fiilikset, joita koen. Totta kai muutkin, mutta sekin on tietynlaista vertaistukea. (ja niham, on vaan mukavaa tietää, että seuraat tekstejäni ja olet kiinnostunut!!)

Fiiliksistä vaikeneminen on mulle opetettu jo lapsena. Täytyy tässä yhteydessä kertoa, että itseasiassa asun tällä hetkellä 60v. mummini luona, joka oli holhoojani 13- vuotiaasta lähtien. Oma lapsuudenkotini.. no, en ole sen koommin ollut mutsin kanssa missään tekemisissä, joka mm.haukkui mut aina ihan lyttyyn, jos näytin fiilikseni suuntaan tai toiseen. Mummi taas on yrittänyt koko ajan saada mut avautumaan ja on siinä onnistunutkin jossain määrin. Ongelma ei ole näyttää miltä tuntuu, vaan kertoa miksi. Olen sitä terapiassa opetellut, ja onnekseni mulla on todella osaava, ymmärtäväinen ja ihana rautainen ammattilainen. Siinä vaan on se, että vaikka se helpottaakin käydä niitä jälkikäteenkin läpi, niin ei sitä aina muista tarkalleen mistä mikäkin lähti. Mut hiljaa hyvä tulee.

Tuntuu todella hyvältä, kun mummi on löytänyt rinnalleen nykyisen miesystävänsä. Mies sattuu olemaan hyvin perhekeskeinen, eikä ikinä ole katsonut mua alaspäin, vaikka tietää totuuden. Hän auttaa ja haluaa olla mukana, kun rakennan elämääni uusiksi. Sitäpaitsi, vaarin kuolemasta on jo 4 vuotta ja mummi on ansainnut kaiken onnen! Ja kun mies vielä sattuu olemaan noin kiva, niin..

Koen huonoa omaatuntoa, kun en ole kirjoittanut sille miehelleni sinne taloon. On kova ikävä ja olen aloittanut lukuisia kertoja, mut en jotenki jaksa alkaa sille purkaa kaikkea mitä tässä on tammikuun jälkeen tapahtunu. Huolestuu vielä! Toisaalta, viimeks ku oli perhetapaaminen, ni kerroin sille asioita, joiden takia päätin, etten vähään aikaan käy siellä ja yritän saada ajatukseni selviks. Pääpointti vaan sattui olemaan sellainen, et jos en kohta ala ilmoittelee itestäni, ni sitten se vasta huolestuukin!!!

I do not mean to ask you this in a "negative" manner. I'm just pointing out that the reality remains; no matter how helpful we'd try to be here on this English-language (sic!) forum, no matter how gladly we'd invite you here, the Suomi world out there is speaking Finnish. How to cope with that - that is the question, and yes, if this forum can help in the task, I'm glad for that - but all this won't change Finland into an English-speaking country.

Attitudes against "foreigners" are another matter altogether - I doubt that a forum like this can help very much in that particular task.

[kalmisto]

>> thing Finns insist on doing is proving they can speak English. If the Finns were prouder of their own existence as well as their language maybe they would speak Finnish more often than slipping into English ever time a foreigner says one word wrong <<

I believe that Swedes, Danes, Norwegians and Icelanders are very much like us in that respect. They also switch to English if your knowledge of their language is not perfect and they can hear that you are a native speaker of English. I personally would not speak English to a foreigner who speaks understandable Finnish. I believe that in Finland English has a higher status than Finnish. Also here in Sweden English has the highest status of all languages, including Swedish. People will show you more respect in Finland and Sweden if you speak perfect English rather than broken Finnish or Swedish. Some might say that this admiration of English is pathetic.

[SGaudreau]

Ah, see now when I was in Dublin I got "tourist photos" of a high street with shop windows full of "help wanted" ads. Here in Helsinki its almost they had "piss off" ads... There is no such thing as a steady 9-5 job
url=http://www.hs.fi/kaupunki/artikkeli/Jat ... 5229974927

Should I here curse americans or the eejit using ää and öö

Curse away Hank. We all know how much you despise foreigners I personally think it is because a dirty Yank like myself kept up with your drinking pace and could still walk (and not weave) home

Now..back to a serious note. Jason, I can assure you with 100% accuracy and full faith in my position that Hank does NOT hate foreigners at all. As a matter of fact, some of his very close friends are indeed foreingers. That little tidbit aside, I would like to state that in my situation, I found the realistic and direct responses to questions about moving to Finland or how to obtain gainful empoloyment here quite refreshing and helpful. The responses are not intended to dash the hopes of people looking for a new life in Finland, but to give an open and honest picture of the challenges to be faced and overcome. I for one, being a grown adult, would prefer to have actual expecations set rather than be given a rose-colored glasses approach to life in this country.

With that being said, it is not impossible for a foreigner to learn the language - I am fairly fluent, am able to and DO function using Finnish in my work and personal life every day. Also, the advice I received on this forum led me to ensure that I had enough savings to survive without having to depend on my Finnish spouse, to have all of my qualification records in paper form with me when I arrived, to know where to go when I arrived to register with the unemployment office to begin integration, where to find Finnish language courses because of my lack (read: Zero) of proficiency, what link to follow for companies using English to ease my search, and the list goes on. What I DID do was search the forum first for any existing information and read until my eyes ached. Only then did I ask questions that were relevant. Those responding knew that I had already searched and read and offered straightforward input.

Let's face it - Finnish companies will in most cases require Finnish language skills and in some cases an understanding of Finnish culture (work and general outlook on life). If somone wants to gain employment, they need to be aware of these facts. I am not saying that one shouldn't strive for change and a broader more multi-cultural approach, but that it is unfair to expect a Finnish company to accomodate any Tom, Dick or Jane who doesn't speak the language or understand the culture simply on the grounds of a humanistic touchy-feely approach. It is NOT the Finnish way.

[Travmies]

Sadly they are the same people who complain about foreigners coming to Finland and don't try and learn the native language. In my opinion, the insists of speaking English to almost anyone who skips a partiitiivi, is a way of disenfranchising them from society in the sense they are only having relationship and privy Finnish speaker who wish to speak English. Of course its not possible to be integrated fully on first arriving in the country, but its not because the language is tough its because Finns use being helpful or friendly as a reason to get a free English course at the detriment of foreigner wishing to speak Finnish.

[SGaudreau]

Sadly they are the same people who want complain that foreigner come to Finland and don't try and learn the native language. In my opinion, the insists of speaking English to almost anyone who skips a partiitiivi, is a way of disenfranchising them from society in the sense they are only having relationship and privy Finnish speaker who wish to speak English. Of course its not possible to be integrated fully on first arriving in the country, but its not because the language is tough its because Finns use being helpful or friendly as a reason to get a free English course at the detriment of foreigner wishing to speak Finnish.

I see and partially agree with you on this point. I chose to not only attend the courses at the Uni, but also to request and in some cases DEMAND (in a nice way) of my Finnish friends that they speak Finnish with me and to,; as much as it might go against their desire to be accomodating, not respond to my Finnish in English. We set up set times when out where English would be spoken - otherwise it was, at my own behest - sink or swim in Finnish. If I did not understand something, they would explain it in a different way in FINNISH and only as a last resort would I ask for the explination in English. All of the Uni courses I took combined did not do as much for me as my Finnish friends speaking with me and correcting my spoken Finnish.

[Travmies]

Lucky I am beyond that stage in my life, a few years ago, when I started work full time. I found that working life was the best Finnish language course of all. In many cases it was fine when it came to low-level chat, but beyond that they would prefer to speak Finnish. I found it was making to the stage where you could sound confidant and understated even if not everything was understood.

[karel]

Same here, travmies.
Best place to land in is an environment where the people just don't speak English. It's what happened to me and when you're hung out to dry it's the best way to learn.
And really, they don't mind if you say everything in nominatiivi, or whatever form. In the end they will understand and if you ask them to correct you, you've got the best schooling there is.

I've followed all 8 courses in Helsinki Summer University (3 nights a week, 4 hours per night) and when I came out on the street I was wondering what the hell I just learned (except for the necessary grammar), because the written language you learn, is not spoken on the street.

[annekmc]

Hello Jason, I find I am not able to relate with most of the people who post on this forum. I seem to have had a completely different experience then most others here. I live close to Vaasa and nowhere near Helsinki, which seems to be important in happiness and quality of live. I moved here 8 years ago, took a Finnish language course, met a whole group of friends from China, turkey, Iran, Germany and Italy. Within 6 months we were all working. A couple in ABB so, no finnish was needed, 1 in Wartsilla, he had very basic Finnish, one has her own resturant which is very successful another is a doctor and I am working in a shop, I had planned to do this for a short time only, but I love it so much and they keep giving me pay rises without me even asking. I believe your attitude is the most important strength when trying to find a job, be willing to accept any job in the beginning and you instantly become much more employable once you have a job (any job) and can therefor have a reference from a Finnish employer. Life here is great. - cue the critical remarks and spell checks_