Job for Freshers / Entry Level ?

reena_prabs · Post by **reena_prabs** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:19 am

Hello all,

One of my friends is planning to move to Finland and hence is looking for a job here. He is an entry level candidate with a couple of months of experience in Oracle(currently employed)

Any advice/suggestions on how to go about the search.

We have tried applying through the websites on many companies, but most of them ask for experience.

Any one out there looking for freshers?

Thanks in advance,
Reena

**Sponsor:**

raamv · Post by **raamv** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:47 pm

Keep "Planning" till he/she finds a job.
Tell your friend to read the stickies in this section.
Check the sites
http://www.mol.fi, and http://www.monster.fi
to start to "learn" to look for a job ( Those Sites are there for a reason, in Finnish )
Finland is a land where the undergraduate degree is frowned upon, the graduate degree passable and a PHD degree adorable...

Karhunkoski · Post by **Karhunkoski** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:08 pm

I heard (I think on here), that a first degree was classed as a "dropout degree" (perhaps from Hank?, not sure). I've mentioned this "theory" to at least 30 educated Finns is professional jobs and not one of them has agreed. "Where the hell did you hear that?", was the most common response.

Anyone else got views?

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:24 pm

The dropout was the "Bachelor's degree" - which did not practically exist in the days back when. Everyone went for a "Master's degree".

So
1st level was Masters Degree (is that what you asked?)
2nd level Licentiate
3rd level PhD...

Anyone below that was generally "opistotasoinen" with college degrees. Theres a mile of difference between an "Engineer" and a "Diploma Engineer" so if someone studying at HUT would've stopped at the BSc. level, they'd been laughed out... The humanists however had to pay a tax to be promoted as 'Masters' so with them the only difference was that a 'Candidate' had been too cheap to shell out the money. However there was very few distinct "bachelor degrees". Like
# agronomi (nyk. arvonimi)
# akateeminen sihteeri
# diplomiekonomi (DE)
# diplomikirjeenvaihtaja
# ekonomi (vuosina 1980-1995 ylempi korkeakoulututkinto, nyk. arvonimi)
# hallintovirkamiestutkinto (Hvt)
# kirjeenvaihtaja
# kunnallistutkinto (Kt)
# kuvataiteen tutkinto
# lastentarhanopettajan tutkinto (LTO)
# liikuntakasvatuksen kandidaatti (LiK)
# metsänhoitaja (nyk. arvonimi)
# nuorisotyön tutkinto (Nt)
# oopperalaulajan tutkinto
# ortodoksisen kirkkokunnan kanttori
# sosiaalihuoltajatutkinto
# sosionomi (nyk. ammattikorkeakoulututkinto)
# toimittajatutkinto (Tt)
# varanotaari (VN)
# verovirkamiestutkinto (Vvt)
# yhteiskunnallinen tutkinto
# yleinen vakuutustutkinto (Yvak)

Now after the bolognese process we now have the polytechnic engineer BSc. and the HUT path BSc-MSc... now I don't know how the Bsc's poly/uni would compete for jobs.

Karhunkoski · Post by **Karhunkoski** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:13 pm

Before I begin, are we talking specifically IT qualifications here...?

sinikala · Post by **sinikala** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:25 pm

Karhunkoski wrote:I heard (I think on here), that a first degree was classed as a "dropout degree" (perhaps from Hank?, not sure). I've mentioned this "theory" to at least 30 educated Finns is professional jobs and not one of them has agreed. "Where the hell did you hear that?", was the most common response.

Anyone else got views?

Depends f you are talking about a foreign or a Finnish "B.Sc." and where it was gained.

In comment on Hank's

1st level was Masters Degree (is that what you asked?)
2nd level Licentiate
3rd level PhD...

you might better consider it like

Insinööri < M.Sc. < Licenciate < Doctorate
compared with the UK system this would be
HND < B.Sc. < M.Phil < Doctorate

The Finnish Insinööri is more like a UK HND than a B.Sc., I have a number of colleagues who are "insinööri" as oppose to "diplom insinööri", they usually come from an applied background and often get the qualification part time whilst working.

Finnish insinööri is nothing like a UK B.Sc.... at least in my area, in terms of level of studies a decent UK University B.Sc. covers similar level of work to that of a Finnish M.Sc.

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:59 pm

Actually, there was

teknikko-insinööri-diplomi-insinööri-tekniikan lisensiaatti- tekniikan tohtori

teknikko and insinööri were 'college level' studies at an 'opisto'. You could get in at 16 and study 3-4 years to be an engineer or after high school and spend 2-3 years for the same. Then that was it. These were more "vocational" degrees, and the technician was zoned out in the 1960's...

On commercial side there were similar degrees, say like merkonomi and even merkantti. Or then datanomi etc.

Whereas the universities you were pressed after high school into the "tube" that got your master-licentiate-doctor path. If you were on a "vocational basis" you could of course apply and get into an university; but you had to start from zero. And the high school "long maths" for example was designed to get you past the university entrance exams.

So there was a gap in between the "vocational degrees" and then the "higher education" degrees. Then came the polytechnics and the bologna process and the locusts ate my shorts...

Karhunkoski · Post by **Karhunkoski** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:40 pm

My earlier reply I didn't get chance to post:

Ah, so I remembered correctly, it was you, good. But no need to get your alushousut twisted, it's merely that raamv's comment, "undergraduate degree is frowned upon" reminded me of previous "dropout degree" comments, which nobody I met professionally seemed to want to agree with....

Now, you're saying:

1st level was Masters Degree
2nd level Licentiate
3rd level PhD...

But people I talk to here, seem to say:

1st degree Bachelors's = Bsc. = Insinööri
2nd degree = Msc. = maisteri
3rd level = PhD...

(of course licentiate would sit somewhere at 2.5 in my list)

Perhaps we are talking different industries, or perhaps the Finnish education system is so confused, that it doesn't know itself what's going on. My (non-Finnish) qualifications have been translated by colleagues in more ways than you can count on one hand

So if you can offer a clear and concise explanation of various degrees and their comparison levels, I and I'm sure many others here, would be "all ears"!

Karhunkoski · Post by **Karhunkoski** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:49 pm

Anyway, it looks very much that there is a lot of confusion, probably confusion that we won't manage to sort out on this forum.

But the main thing I think that is important here is.........

We must be very careful telling people here that a first degree/undergraduate degree//bachelor's degree/whatever you want to call it, is "frowned upon" or "a dropout degree", because obviously it depends where you got that degree, what units you did, level, etc. To blatantly slag off any first degree as being useless may well send someone (and their life) on possibly the totally wrong course.

Many people listen to the advice given on here (and plan their life on it) and it seems lately that there is a lot of inaccurate advice flying around that is often more "opinion" than based on anything solid (hence my new sig)

I just think the regular posters have a certain responsibility to give solid advice, otherwise the forum just losers credibility.

Just an opinion of one.

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:40 pm

It depends *when* you were educated. And *whom* do you talk with. Generation gap, see.

So back in 1988 when I started looking for a job - a regular "insinööri" was on the shop floor with a blue collar and a "diplomi-insinööri" was in the office with a suit and tie.

The "gap-filling" in between the "vocational college" and "university" levels caused more confusion than imagineable, but as its been sorted out now since the 1990's of course there is a difference for those graduated *now*.

But if you are not wet behind your ears and are applying for a job, then if your B.Sc from Upper Wanking 1988 is compared to a Diplomi-insinööri from Vaasa 1988, and you loose in the comparison as you have a "drop-out" degree. As in 1988 you either were a vocational engineer or their lordship the diploma engineer. *That* is the thing here. Back when you graduated nobody else graduated like that - so in "peer review" you loose despite the level of studies in 1988 having been whatever and else.

Like I got yo-merkonomi papers these days aren't woth crap. Back in 1992 they were something. Now you need to have tradenomi papers.

Those with "modern papers" are playing with a different set of legos. *However* those doing the recruitment process are not (yet) the ones gone through the modern system; so their conservatism here is what you must brace yourself against. And of course there is this little prejudice thing against foreign papers anyhow

Karhunkoski · Post by **Karhunkoski** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:55 pm

Hank W. wrote: So back in 1988 when I started looking for a job - a regular "insinööri" was on the shop floor with a blue collar and a "diplomi-insinööri" was in the office with a suit and tie.

Aha, pretty much backs up Fishy then with his:

Insinööri < M.Sc. < Licenciate < Doctorate
compared with the UK system this would be
HND < B.Sc. < M.Phil < Doctorate

I remember the HND kids getting a different coloured hat to go with their blue overalls. HND equalled supervisory, possibly top floor if they shine, but your BSc would just jump that rung straight off.

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:10 pm

I have somewhere salvaged a "shop manual" from the 1970's of how the computing centre is run. The hierarchy in the computing centre was denoted by the color of lab coats people wore.

And all the "old farts" in the department that were "programmers" had a masters degree - in particle physics or somesuch (as there had been no computing studies). Then a lot of the middle management were "risen from the shop floor" input technicians. This kind of hierachical difference didn't as much reflect in your career chances, but still back in the turn of the century a lack of "higher education" was a glass ceiling.

reena_prabs · Post by **reena_prabs** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:08 pm

Phew!! A lot of discussion since I last logged on

Thanks a lot for all the inputs!

Anyhow...

Does he have Finnish? And a Degree?

He has a Bachelor's degree in Engineering (Major - Information Technology). Oracle certified. No Finnish skills.

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:52 pm

Oracle cert is good.

raamv · Post by **raamv** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:02 am

Karhunkoski wrote:Many people listen to the advice given on here (and plan their life on it) and it seems lately that there is a lot of inaccurate advice flying around that is often more "opinion" than based on anything solid (hence my new sig)

I do agree with you somewhat, however If that was the case..then the forum regulars who post here despite being asked a 1000 times needn't reply 10000 times for them do they? People want to hear what they want to hear..

Finland Forum

Find information about moving to, living in and life in Finland