...and Dying in Finland

[littlefrank]

'Being a chav is genetical?'

I said 'culture'.

[sammy]

I wonder how much Finland's alcohol policies are to blame for the binge drinking culture that's developed; normal drinking habits are never able to develop.

I think the root of the problem is reflected in this sentence. What exactly do you mean by 'normal drinking habits'? What is 'normal' in this case would, in my opinion, be based on deeper social issues than the government policy on the pricing of alcohol.

The problem is that binge drinking IS the normal drinking habit for many Finns. (NB: not all, but many.) It probably wouldn't have much effect on this widely accepted norm whether the government would impose a total prohibition or total "freedom" as regards to the sale and availability of booze.

I'm not saying the situation shouldn't change, or that it couldn't change away from binge drinking - it's just that merely blaming -or even changing - the government's alcohol pricing policy might not change a thing. Raise prices? People go to Tallinn. Lower prices? People just buy more from ALKO.

Controlling what people can afford to buy is not necessarily easy, but it is much easier than controlling what people actually want to buy - and what they consider is "a fun weekend" for example. Listen to the weekend tales of teenagers i.e. future adult alcohol consumers. They're not bragging about how cheaply they got this bottle or that. They're bragging about how many bottles they have drunk and how f*cking inebriated they've been. There you have it in a nutshell

It's not a question of what non-binge drinkers like you or me would like the prices to be.

[enk]

So how do you explain Britains binge drinking culture?

It's cuz Ryanair started flying to Finland.

-enk

[Finlander]

I dunno. For example, if you drink 2-bottles of wine per-week with dinner, then you can expect to overpay by at least 10-Euros at Alko. At least.

That's about 500-Euros per-year... If you invest it in a stock fund that yields 10% growth-per-annum, then you'll have over 55,000€ saved in 25-years. Is that "affordable" to you?

If you ask me, I'd rather just pay the EU market price, rather than the Finnish monopoly price.

What kind of really idiotic arguement is this??

A financial one?

I wonder how much Finland's alcohol policies are to blame for the binge drinking culture that's developed; normal drinking habits are never able to develop.

What exactly do you mean by 'normal drinking habits'?
[...]
The problem is that binge drinking IS the normal drinking habit for many Finns. (NB: not all, but many.) It probably wouldn't have much effect on this widely accepted norm whether the government would impose a total prohibition or total "freedom" as regards to the sale and availability of booze.

I probably should have written 'normalized.'

In any case, if we accept your hypothesis that any action by government is meaningless to consumption patterns, then why do we acquiesce in overpaying?

After all, they are telling us that raising prices DOES affect consumption. Why let them rip us off, based on falsehoods?

[sammy]

In any case, if we accept your hypothesis that any action by government is meaningless to consumption patterns, then why do we acquiesce in overpaying?

After all, they are telling us that raising prices DOES affect consumption. Why let them rip us off, based on falsehoods?

Well, the underlined parts only express your personal opinions, not mine; to state the same thing over and over again, I don't consider the prices "too high" at all. So the "us" rhetorics above fail, in my case at least I'm afraid

The ones who disagree - perhaps I'm in a minority here - could try and do something about it, e.g. try the TEHY thing and refuse to buy any alcohol unless the price is dropped at least 25%

Btw, government actions concerning the price are perhaps not utterly meaningless, that's why I wrote "would not have much effect"... perhaps they might have some effect on the overall consumption, I wouldn't start guessing how much though... but regardless of that I'd wager they just would not as such alter the underlying 'urge to binge drink', or the social acceptance of the drink-yourselves-senseless norm... at least it seems that they haven't been successful in that... so then, what would? I dunno.

[sammy]

Okay, since I think wine isn't too expensive in Finland, even if it may be more expensive than in some other countries... let's try something just for fun.

What would be a normal SHOP retail price for a bottle of Mouton Cadet Rouge 75cl... (this should be easily available more or less in every country) in Germany, France, UK, USA, Spain... any entries welcome

ALKO: 9,99€

[Hank W.]

Lets go for some good wine too

Château Mouton Rothschild 2004
Baron Philippe de Rothschild, AC Pauillac, 1er Grand Cru Classé

ALKO 162,40...



le Plonk:
Mouton Cadet 75cl - 2004 Prix : 7.99 EUR (52.41 FRF) (doesn't state minimum quantity)
Mouton Cadet Rouge 2002 Vendu par 12 bouteilles Par 12 / 13.30 €
Mouton Cadet Rouge - A.C. Bordeaux - Nouvelle Présentation 2004/2005 75 (6 bottles) 7.86 EUR

[sammy]

And its not the Château Mouton Rothschild at 162,40...

Mouton Cadet 75cl - 2004 Prix : 7.99 EUR (52.41 FRF) (doesn't state minimum quantity)
Mouton Cadet Rouge 2002 Vendu par 12 bouteilles Par 12 / 13.30 €

Yep, good to note that

Mind you the ALKO 9,99€ Muttonen is also of the 2004 vintage. So let's stick to that vintage if possible (since 2002 seems to be already more expensive in France I gather?)

http://www.alko.fi/tuotteet/fi/005091

[EP]

Looks like Systembolaget asks 85 kr for it.

[sammy]

Looks like Systembolaget asks 85 kr for it.

La Suede... 9,18 €-points (expecting somewhat lower figures from southern and central European countries...)

[Hank W.]

Baron Philippe de Rothschild MOUTON CADET Rouge Bordeaux - 2003 / 04
12 x 75 cl £117.73 =168,83€ /12 =14,07

[raamv]

I dunno. For example, if you drink 2-bottles of wine per-week with dinner, then you can expect to overpay by at least 10-Euros at Alko. At least.

That's about 500-Euros per-year... If you invest it in a stock fund that yields 10% growth-per-annum, then you'll have over 55,000€ saved in 25-years. Is that "affordable" to you?

If you ask me, I'd rather just pay the EU market price, rather than the Finnish monopoly price.

What kind of really idiotic arguement is this??

A financial one?

Yes..I forgot that idiots take things out of context..
Dont forget why I asked

THis means that you dont drink for the next 25 years to earn 55K...
and in 25 years...what can be afforded with 55K ??

[Liam1]

Public Choice Economics - my favourite subject 15 years ago

I remember my lecturer (who looked very much like Hank W's picture) said that the first rule of taxation is to tax things that are price inelastic
i.e. that consumtion doesn't change that much with price. As such find the addictive things - alcohol, tobacco or things you cannot live without - cars

Then it is for the politicians to use their weasel words to justify these taxes on other grounds. i.e. health, environmental.

As such Finlander is in my view probably correct. Though also I'm not that bothered about the price of wine - if it is a few euros more expensive than in Germany I would also be happy in the knowledge that I was sipping it in a nice Nordic country rather than sandwiched between two fat men in Lederhosen!

Also I think Raamv that Finlander is being illustrative about the cost of buying - not building a business case e.g. when you see silly stats like Finns use enough toilet paper to wrap around the earth 5 times they don't really mean that they will actually try to do this

[raamv]

Also I think Raamv that Finlander is being illustrative about the cost of buying - not building a business case e.g. when you see silly stats like Finns use enough toilet paper to wrap around the earth 5 times they don't really mean that they will actually try to do this

hmm if he uses the same illustrative point to buy "food" instead of alcohol...then we would be millionaires in a few years let alone 25!!! of course...in those doesnt it mean that you ll starve..
Plus the fact that you just cannot compare prices cross border UNLESS you have some means to regularly bring those into Finland..
All that said.. These days, there re plentiful choices on box wine whose 3 litres cost around €20..

[sammy]

the first rule of taxation is to tax things that are price inelastic i.e. that consumtion doesn't change that much with price. As such find the addictive things - alcohol, tobacco or things you cannot live without - cars

Then it is for the politicians to use their weasel words to justify these taxes on other grounds. i.e. health, environmental.

Hmm, I'm not saying that the politicians are saints in this respect The thing is however that I find it hard to believe that pricing of alcohol would be the reason for binge drinking, and this binge drinking getting more and more popular. Let's say we make strong drinks (kossu etc) relatively more 'cost effective' than wine. Yes, maybe a number of people then will prefer to buy more kossu instead of the milder drinks. But this does not explain WHY these folks are aiming for the maximum inebriation level, rathert than -using Finlander's term here- "normal drinking habits" i.e. moderate in the first place! Why do they enjoy getting quite blotto as quickly and as cost-effectively as possible? These questions are why I'm still a bit doubtful whether the government alcohol policy is "to blame" for that sort of a drinking culture.