...and Dying in Finland

[blaugrau]

What would be a normal SHOP retail price for a bottle of Mouton Cadet Rouge 75cl... (this should be easily available more or less in every country) in Germany, France, UK, USA, Spain... any entries welcome

9,99 € in a standard Austrian supermarket

[sammy]

I dunno. For example, if you drink 2-bottles of wine per-week with dinner, then you can expect to overpay by at least 10-Euros at Alko. At least.

That's about 500-Euros per-year... If you invest it in a stock fund that yields 10% growth-per-annum, then you'll have over 55,000€ saved in 25-years. Is that "affordable" to you?

What kind of really idiotic arguement is this??
THis means that you dont drink for the next 25 years to earn 55K...
and in 25 years...what can be afforded with 55K ??

Btw raamv, I think that as a (speculative) financial argument this is as such correct. In Finlander's example, the accumulated 'savings' consisted of the price difference invested in a fund, not undrunk wine I'm not sure whether the price difference between Finland and country X would be quite the 10€ but that's beside the point.

As for the reasons of binge drinking...

Liam1 - first you state that some particular consumption habits stay more or less the same, irrespecrive of the price/taxation...

the first rule of taxation is to tax things that are price inelastic i.e. that consumtion doesn't change that much with price. As such find the addictive things - alcohol... (snip snip)

...and then you agree with Finlander that "... Finland's alcohol policies are to blame for the binge drinking culture that's developed"

As such Finlander is in my view probably correct.

Erm... wot? I'd still say the real reasons for the social phenomenon of binge drinking lie somewhere deeper than the 'eevil cruelty' of the state monopoly on alcohol retail.

[Liam1]

Hi Sammy
The problem with these forums is that there are so many different sub -threads. I wasn't as clear as you in separating the many points being made

.

As we know, beer and wine are ridiculously priced in Finland. Needless to say, I'm of the opinion that Finland's politicians use alcohol propaganda to siphon money from the countries residents.

This is what I agreed with - then went on to say didn't care about the price of wine. As for your debate on binge drinking - I took economics not sociology at University so have no informed comment on that

I have my own theories as to why many Finns are like this, but not going to open that can of worms....

[sammy]

As we know, beer and wine are ridiculously priced in Finland. Needless to say, I'm of the opinion that Finland's politicians use alcohol propaganda to siphon money from the countries residents.

This is what I agreed with - then went on to say didn't care about the price of wine. As for your debate on binge drinking - I took economics not sociology at University so have no informed comment on that

Ah, okay. Mea gulpa I presume Maybe this depends on whether you actually do consider the prices 'ridiculous' or not.

I have my own theories as to why many Finns are like this, but not going to open that can of worms....

Why not? I think the reasons for binge drinking are social issues, not essentially financial ones. Learning from parents and peers... social alienation, escapism in the face of a society where being considered a "person" instead of merely a replaceable or indeed dispensable consumer unit is less and less common... loss of perceived 'meaning' in general... disappointment in the increased material well-being that surprisingly did not necessarily bring 'happiness' or contentment with it... one could come up with several possible reasons.

..and let's not forget sheer egoism, stupidity, and such like

[littlefrank]

'Finns use enough toilet paper to wrap around the earth 5 times they don't really mean that they will actually try to do this'

My daughter has, loads of times.

Finlander still hasn't answered my question about why, if 'binge drinking' is to do with alcohol prices, does Britain have a problem with it?

If price had anything to do with it, then Brits would binge drink on something like 'white lightning' cider

http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews63237.html

But people who binge drink (fe/males 18 to 25) tend to go to expensive pubs/clubs, ok they're initially attracted by 'happy hours' and special offers, but once ensconced in a pub/club there's usually a marked reluctance to move on, or an inability to move at all.

The social reasons for 'binge drinking' maybe due to pressures of work, desire to climb the greasy pole etc, i.e. people 'binge drink' friday/saturday night, recover sunday, ready for work on monday. When I was a mature student at university there was a marked reluctance from my 'half my age' friends to drink during the week or when they were preparing for essays/exams. Their reason, they needed a good degree/ a good job, the outside world was competitive...

When people consider the cost of alcohol to high they tend to make their own e.g. kilju (killyou), sahti, poitín, peatreek, hembränt...

[Liam1]

Normally prefer to post based on facts rather than my opinion, but you are right Sammy - Why not ?

Think in both UK and Finland there is definitely at the beginning a need to impress and alcohol consumption is for a strange reason linked to machismo (extended now to the "ladettes" in UK). UK people tend to want to belong so if that means being part of drinking sessions so be it.

Examples abound - one that I thougt was most demonstrative here was a friend telling me how at a party someone brought an "alcoholometer" (to test alcohol levels) so 90% of the men and 20% of the women took it as a challenge to see who could get highest reading. No better in UK - standard boast was "Do you know how many I had last night"

Think Finns are also - not sure if "inhibited" is exacatly the right word, But they seem frustrated by this and need something to loosen themselves up - so that they can be as free speaking / relaxed as a lot of the Europeans. Also that they look like they bottle emotions up and alcohol becomes the pressure valve, whereas your standard French/Italien guy will just wave his arms around and shout when problems start. This need to drink to relax plus addictive nature can contribute to heavy drinking.

As for pricing to stop above. Difficult because we all are too well off so even kids can get hold of enough money to support this.

One observation - not sure if true - is that Finns (and Swedes) tend to have getting paralytic as their goal. Brits tend to have impressing peers / having good time as goal with being paralytic as a happy consequence!

Probably well wide of the mark. Now you all now why I stuck to economics rather than sociology.

[sammy]

Probably well wide of the mark. Now you all now why I stuck to economics rather than sociology.

Dunno, the possible reasons / explanations that you and littlefrank presented for 'binge drinking' all sound plausible. I'm no professional sociologist either... they've probably been all brainwashed by the government anyway

[Finlander]

I dunno. For example, if you drink 2-bottles of wine per-week with dinner, then you can expect to overpay by at least 10-Euros at Alko. At least.

That's about 500-Euros per-year... If you invest it in a stock fund that yields 10% growth-per-annum, then you'll have over 55,000€ saved in 25-years. Is that "affordable" to you?

What kind of really idiotic arguement is this??
THis means that you dont drink for the next 25 years to earn 55K...
and in 25 years...what can be afforded with 55K ??

Btw raamv, I think that as a (speculative) financial argument this is as such correct. In Finlander's example, the accumulated 'savings' consisted of the price difference invested in a fund, not undrunk wine I'm not sure whether the price difference between Finland and country X would be quite the 10€ but that's beside the point.

Thanks for the clarification sammy---that's exactly right. But, I'll stick to my original price difference of 10€ based on two-bottles-per-week. In Germany, it is normal to buy wine in the 3.50€- to 4€-bottle range, for everyday, dinnertime purposes. The quality in that price range is perfectly acceptable for most people, but under 3.50€ things get sketchy...not impossible, but sketchy (at my work, we buy 2.99 sekt for lunchtime birthday parties ).

Realize that, in Germany, the 3.50€- to 4€ range is NOT comparable with the 6€ 'bargain bin' wines at Alko. Instead, it's more comparable with Alko's 9€+ selection (if you call it a 'selection'; I don't). Furthermore, I don't think two-bottles-per-week is excessive consumption for either an individual or couple.

But yes, I suppose we should consider inflation... Maybe a 10% growth fund is too conservative, especially considering that this is money you'd otherwise throw away at Alko. So let's go with 12%.

Hence...

Code: Select all

Price difference: Alko price - German price = 10€
10€ invested each week at 12% growth

Difference after 10-years:
10,000€
Difference after 15-years:
21,000€
Difference after 20-years:
41,631€
Difference after 25-years:
79,000£

Again, I'd rather pay the EU market price, like in Germany instead of Alko's monopoly price

I took economics not sociology at University so have no informed comment on that

I have my own theories as to why many Finns are like this, but not going to open that can of worms....

Well, I studied hard to become an "idiot" so that precluded any indepth academic forays into sociology... Nevertheless, I will say that Finland's high-tax, centralized economy has always ensured a high rate of structural unemployment. Unemployment and alcoholism probably correlate rather strongly. Also, the welfare state takes away lots of individual responsibility and self-determinism. I don't think the human spirit is designed for such a system, so drinking is an outlet for many.

Finlander still hasn't answered my question about why, if 'binge drinking' is to do with alcohol prices, does Britain have a problem with it?
[...]
But people who binge drink (fe/males 18 to 25) tend to go to expensive pubs/clubs, ok they're initially attracted by 'happy hours' and special offers, but once ensconced in a pub/club there's usually a marked reluctance to move on, or an inability to move at all.

Very well then. If I'm not mistaken, Britain was named a 'tolerance' country in that Harvard Medical School study that I posted previously. And judging by your reference to 'happy hour', it would seem that Britain is still a tolerance country. After all, they only have an 'hour' to be 'happy.' The rest of the time they get punished.

Psychologically speaking, do you think that societies take their cues from such policies? And would young people be more likely to acquiesce to whatever the nanny state prescribes for them, or would they find ways to rebel?

[Karhunkoski]

the nanny state

Ach, now you blew it there Finlander

I was really trying hard, honestly I was, to understand your viewpoint, and then you go and spoil it by talking of "the nanny state".

You see, I've seen far too many examples where people have complained of "the nanny state" making decisions and "doing things", then shortly after, when confronted by another scenario, have gone on to say, "good god, why doesn't the government DO something in x situation".

I do hope you're not one of those.....?

[Desundial]

the nanny state

You see, I've seen far too many examples where people have complained of "the nanny state" making decisions and "doing things", then shortly after, when confronted by another scenario, have gone on to say, "good god, why doesn't the government DO something in x situation".

Uh, do you mean ask for it to do something like lower the price of alcohol to stop all the binge drinking?!

[sammy]

Realize that, in Germany, the 3.50€- to 4€ range is NOT comparable with the 6€ 'bargain bin' wines at Alko. Instead, it's more comparable with Alko's 9€+ selection (if you call it a 'selection'; I don't). Furthermore, I don't think two-bottles-per-week is excessive consumption for either an individual or couple.

Well, as you like it - but this does not change the fact that I do not consider it a "throwaway" to buy (say) the Mouton Cadet Rouge, or some Zenato Valpolicella at approx 10€. No matter if you'd get it for 3,5€ in e.g. Germany. (how much exactly would the MCR be in a German shop btw?)

Call me a financial loser and say what you will of the "nanny" welfare state - but I still do think there are much more important issues in society than a few euro's difference in the price of a wine bottle...

Again, I'd rather pay the EU market price, like in Germany instead of Alko's monopoly price

Funnily enough, in a way we seem to agree on this. I would also prefer paying, say, 5€ for a bottle of wine that now costs 10€ at ALKO.

[Finlander]

sammy,

I don't know about MCR and ZV.

My point here--which you seem to agree with--is that Alko pushes you into the 9€- or 10€- range if you want something that won't make you wince. And they do it under the guise of "keeping alcoholism under control." As I said, I believe it has the opposite effect.

I like both wines you mentioned, but have been drinking Chianti lately. The ubiquitous Cab Sav and Shiraz, too, of course--usually in the under-4€ range, but I'll go for the really good stuff ( ) occasionally, at about 10€. I'm still in the 'saving money' phase-of-life, so a 1K+ wine budget isn't for me; therefore I'm glad I have the choice to economize (in Germany).

Also, I'm not against welfare, per se; there's certainly nothing un-European about helping those who are less fortunate. But I think Finland is a bit over-the-top when it comes to 'protecting us from ourselves'... at our own expense, of course... and perhaps to the benefit of certain politicians and their supported industries and agendas.

Anyway, I can't wait to see some younger leadership in Finland. I don't think young people, who travel more and see how things work in other places, are as brainwash-able as their parents

[sammy]

My point here--which you seem to agree with--is that Alko pushes you into the 9€- or 10€- range if you want something that won't make you wince. And they do it under the guise of "keeping alcoholism under control." As I said, I believe it has the opposite effect.

Hmm, there are many many 'non-wincing' wines in lower price ranges too - you might wish to check some Argentinian ones... or then you might not wish to do that after all 'what is enjoyable' is eventually a question of personal opinion (and I'm certainly no wine expert!)

When I said I'd prefer to pay 5€ instead of 10€, perhaps you noticed that I used some italics there. Living in a society isn't always strictly about what "I'd like" to do, pay, etc. even if the selfish bit in me would of course like to say "me me me me" all the time.

Until someone (ie the government, I presume - or perhaps YOU ) comes up with a better alternative to at least try and keep the wine-bibbing at bay than the present policy, I'm not so bothered whether I pay some 'extra'. Not bothered at all in fact. Perhaps I'm nanny-welfaring a bit when I think that this is a good thing, if at least some of that extra goes towards covering the cost of alcohol-related problems (health, violence, crime... remember it's not always the doters themselves that suffer!) - even if I'm personally not directly at the receiving end.

How would you tackle the binge drinking problem in a society? (Remember for the sake of the argument that you aren't supposed to make moral or any other judgements on behalf of other people in 'If only everyone did like I said / thought as I think' style, otherwise you'd just be taking the role of the 'nanny' government) Do you believe that lowering the prices would somehow lead to more "normal" drinking habits? I'm a bit cynical - as said, the underlying 'blotto culture' exists, in my opinion, quite independently of the alcohol price level.

[Liam1]

At the danger of repeating myself, I do believe that the price of alcohol is a little irrelevant to binge drinking because most Finns can afford either €4 (Germany) or €12 (Finland) i.e. the price of 2 cheap bottles of wine (12 units of alcohol) which in one eve gets to binge status. Or €25 (8 beers at a cheap pub) etc etc. Even your average student can budget for this.

i.e. pricing doesn't really tackle the problem but does raise extra revenue for the govt.

Might be better to tackle at least in bars by stopping people obviously pished from buying more, but if I was on min wage serving I wouldn't want to tell those half cut persons that I'm not serving anymore....

[raamv]

Thanks for the clarification sammy---that's exactly right. But, I'll stick to my original price difference of 10€ based on two-bottles-per-week. In Germany, it is normal to buy wine in the 3.50€- to 4€-bottle range, for everyday, dinnertime purposes. The quality in that price range is perfectly acceptable for most people, but under 3.50€ things get sketchy...not impossible, but sketchy (at my work, we buy 2.99 sekt for lunchtime birthday parties ).

Realize that, in Germany, the 3.50€- to 4€ range is NOT comparable with the 6€ 'bargain bin' wines at Alko. Instead, it's more comparable with Alko's 9€+ selection (if you call it a 'selection'; I don't). Furthermore, I don't think two-bottles-per-week is excessive consumption for either an individual or couple.

But yes, I suppose we should consider inflation... Maybe a 10% growth fund is too conservative, especially considering that this is money you'd otherwise throw away at Alko. So let's go with 12%.

Hence...

Code: Select all

Price difference: Alko price - German price = 10€
10€ invested each week at 12% growth

Difference after 10-years:
10,000€
Difference after 15-years:
21,000€
Difference after 20-years:
41,631€
Difference after 25-years:
79,000£

Again, I'd rather pay the EU market price, like in Germany instead of Alko's monopoly price

I took economics not sociology at University so have no informed comment on that

I have my own theories as to why many Finns are like this, but not going to open that can of worms....

Well, I studied hard to become an "idiot" so that precluded any indepth academic forays into sociology... Nevertheless, I will say that Finland's high-tax, centralized economy has always ensured a high rate of structural unemployment. Unemployment and alcoholism probably correlate rather strongly. Also, the welfare state takes away lots of individual responsibility and self-determinism. I don't think the human spirit is designed for such a system, so drinking is an outlet for many.

Well ALL of your arguements will hold, IFF there is a way for a regular Finn to access everyday alcohol from other countries at a reasonable rate...Since taking a trip to Germany or Estonia doesnt not happen on a weekly basis, your arguement doesnt hold weight...and Hoping that Alko's monopoly will change is still hope for now ( high expectations)..
I would like to pay "Asian" prices for goods but I know that I cant..so theres no point in putting together an arguement that doesnt relate to any practical savings..and trying to create an utopian account of surplus!!