School Shooting in Finland!

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Karhunkoski
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Post by Karhunkoski » Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:25 pm

penelope wrote:
I really do not want to be part of this debate as I think it is diverting focus from far more critical areas of attention (like mental health care, education etc etc).
A good point Penelope.

I've finished making my point anyway regarding the needs for hunting moose.

Back to mental health monitoring by teachers, yes a good point you made, teachers do need some training in that area.


Political correctness is the belief that it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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ScubaGirl
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Post by ScubaGirl » Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:48 pm

Karhunkoski wrote:You are unreal.

You criticise the fact that people don't open themselves to ideas, then go on to hide your own super idea under a blanket.

I'm glad you find me funny, I find you a little irrational TBH, sorry. If you have a decent proposal, then propose it for god's sake. Otherwise some people may just think that you spouted off an opinion, without thinking through a suitable alternative.
You have no idea about what I do in my private life, what kind of organizations I belong to, what kind of volunteer work I've done, what kind of money I've donated to causes for both human & animal rights, etc... I never claimed to have a, "super idea", I just said I had a good argument for your vendetta against moose. Nothing will be solved by arguing it with YOU on FF though, so THAT's why I'd rather not waste my time. Do you get it now? Maybe your time isn't as precious to you. I already feel disappointed in myself for even wasting my time replying to this

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raamv
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Post by raamv » Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:22 pm

I just heard from a colleague that there is some sort of bomb threat in Kirkkonummi school... :oops: :cry:
Dont know if this is real or not..but surely we wll hear it on the news
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sammy
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Post by sammy » Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:43 pm

raamv wrote:I just heard from a colleague that there is some sort of bomb threat in Kirkkonummi school... :oops: :cry:
Dont know if this is real or not..but surely we wll hear it on the news
It was a false rumour. According to the crisis psychologist Salli Saari it was "probably some school students wishing to pull a joke". That kind of 'joking' is not funny in my opinion... but what would the kids understand.

http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/oikea/id74579.html

LilWabbit
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Post by LilWabbit » Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:48 pm

After the initial shock subsides and the scoops gradually shift back to the ubiquitous Matti and Mervi, the general public will once again sober up to the fact that teenage gun-violence remains a truly rare occurence, even in America. In fact, since the US population is 60 times bigger than that of Finland, while cases of shooting-sprees by students in America remain far lower than 60, it would statistically follow that the recent singular Finnish case makes Finnish schools considerably more dangerous in terms of school shootings. Evidently such superficial statistical analysis will provide little constructive contribution to the actual problem at hand, and probably only intensify the transatlantic blame-game which has gathered force also in this forum.

But I figured it useful to remind ourselves of the simple math before passing all blame to America as the most dangerous place to send your kids to school. For the record, I am a Finn.

Some of us wish to consider school shootings as isolated cases of young fruitcakes gone bonkers due to entirely external factors. Under this theory such incidents are bound to transpire at whiles, regardless of time and place in history, and the best solution is just to wake up to the ugly reality and not pretend surprised the next time it occurs. Others on the forum agree that such episodes do indeed represent extreme cases, while symptomatic of much broader defects in society, parenting and institutional architecture. According to this theory, such cases in fact stem from somewhat common features and attitudes prevailing in our modern society and culture which, however, have been allowed to carry to excess by all the main players, (1) the potential killer himself, (2) his parents, and the (3)society at large.

Whichever theory hits closer on the mark, preventive measures represent the only sustainable means to tackle the problem. The education of the child remains the most potent instrument available to instil hope, love for fellow citizen, a meaningful and constructive sense of life-purpose, as well as basic self-restraint.

Once the child has developed into a fully-fledged teenager, intervening as parents and offering psychological or social services to the troubled youth represent more emergency measures (and as such important measures) which tackle the symptoms at best, while ultimately impotent to change the person. Intervening at adolescence is simply too late in most cases.

The importance of parenting as the primary preventive measure for any kind of crime cannot therefore be overrated. And true enough, after parents have really done their best in upbringing, any future choice made by their sons and daughters as youth or adults remains solely their own.

While we can't blame our fathers for our own sins, the nature of our sins however can be pre-emptively greatly curbed by solid and far-sighted parenting starting from the earliest childhood. Most of us would never be able to blast the brains of even the worst human nuisance in our lives simply due to deeply-instilled values and restraint mechanisms imparted to us by our own parents. Thank goodness for them, no matter what their other shortcomings may be. Who said parenting cannot prevent crime?
Last edited by LilWabbit on Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Rosamunda » Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:56 pm

LilWabbit wrote:Who said parenting can't prevent crime?
Definitely not me. I agree 100%.

So, why isn't parenting taught in schools? Why isn't parenting on the national core curriculum; after all, my lads have learnt how to make pulla in school, one of mine made me a very useful cheeseboard out of wood and a candle holder which he welded out of metal. They learn about the food pyramid, are told about drugs, safe sex, they learn ethics and religion.... :?

But I also think that just as schools do not have a monopoly on the education of our kids, so mums and dads do not have a monopoly on parenting.

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Post by sammy » Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:08 pm

penelope wrote:
LilWabbit wrote:Who said parenting can't prevent crime?
Definitely not me. I agree 100%.

So, why isn't parenting taught in schools? Why isn't parenting on the national core curriculum; after all, my lads have learnt how to make pulla in school, one of mine made me a very useful cheeseboard out of wood and a candle holder which he welded out of metal. They learn about the food pyramid, are told about drugs, safe sex, they learn ethics and religion.... :?
I'd say it's a bit "too early" for the kids to try and learn "parenting" at school.

This might actually be one of today's biggest problems - children are not allowed to be children, from one authority to another they are being pushed towards the "produce more, and what's equally important, consume more" ideology - earlier and earlier in their lives. No wonder they feel at a loss. Despite what every rebellious 15-year-old maintains, they are NOT yet fully fledged adults capable of 'adult' decisions.

Besides - IMO the teaching of "parenting" is best to be left for the parents themselves. If they can't provide a good role model for their own children, then who can? From that point of view, it might also be said that it's "too late" when children reach the school age.

Or would it be that the parents are desperately trying to continue living their 'inner teenager' lives as long as possible by avoiding adulthood / parenthood and its responsibilities? i.e. "let the school system take care of it" :?

Just some thoughts (not at you personally, penelope :) )

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Post by Rosamunda » Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:36 pm

Well I think we have got to point where too many parents are NOT capable of teaching parenting skills (either through example or whatever). So who will do it? I'm not suggesting that this gets pushed on 15 year olds but I fully support kids being kept in some form of education until they are 18 (the new education bill announced in the Queen's speech this week in England/Wales is going in the right direction). And since many kids are already parents before they are out of their teens then I definitely don't think that teaching parenting to 16-18 yr olds is premature.

Parenting used to be instinctive when families lived in closely knit communities, sometimes with several generations under the same roof. But that doesn't happen any more.

It could easily be an extension of the civics classes that are currently being taught. No need to have an exam, or even a grade etc etc Not everything that is taught in schools has to be purely academic. And parents could even be involved in the teaching. I would definitely like to see more parents being ACTIVELY involved in schools.

I know a Brit in Kirkkonummi who teaches similar classes about successful marriage and family life; he was trying to get his course accepted on the lukio curriculum.

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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:46 pm

catfish78 wrote: Just those in Kansas. They are a little "special" there.
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:twisted:
Last edited by Hank W. on Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by catfish78 » Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:49 pm

Hank W. wrote:
catfish78 wrote: Just those in Kansas. They are a little "special" there.
http://www.bumpertalk.com/bt/images/thumb/BC092A.jpg
:twisted:
Aint that the truth Hank. :lol: :lol: :lol:
**** that and **** you

Rob A.
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Post by Rob A. » Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:22 pm

catfish78 wrote:
Hank W. wrote:
sinikettu wrote: where and what is this place Finland?
According to the Americans:Next to Gay Sweden :twisted:
That is not all Americans. Just those in Kansas. They are a little "special" there.
Well...I had no idea those Southern Baptist fundamentalists were slagging the Swedes and Finns as well...they've been slagging Canada for years, so I guess we're in good company... I suppose mentally-ill would cover it for that Baptist preacher, Fred Phelps...

I also think it's a bit misleading to suggest Kansas is the only state with this "religion" problem.... it occurs in a wide swathe from the Carolinas/Georgia through to Kansas/Wyoming and even Montana and Idaho...

I found this little pic... :wink: :wink:

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...and this is the link:

http://hypnosis.home.netcom.com/iq_vs_religiosity.htm

...Finland isn't in this survey, but the two European countries with the highest average IQ were Germany and Italy...well, of course, it's obvious, isn't it??... :wink: :wink:

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Post by brindusa » Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:44 pm

"Within a given population, is religion more important to persons of high intelligence, or low intelligence?"
krookus

Desundial

Post by Desundial » Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:49 pm

To me it's pointless to debate whether the parents are at falt, the teachers, the schools, society etc. It's the shooters falt. period. He deserves nothing but scorn, and certainly no sympathy. In my opinion, like in similar shootings like virginia tech etc he's just another narcisistic, emotionally crippled (i.e. no empathatic ability) teenager (as if they aren't narcisistic enough) too absorbed in his own unhappiness and frustration and need to feel powerful and be able to even receive any help. It's no wonder in these incidents always kill themselves, they can't in the first place to take the personal responsibility to find a way to exist in life and instead in their head always blame others for everything.

Well, news flash - life is imperfect yet most people find their way to deal with that and muddle on. What about the post-war generation, so many growing up without parents or with violent memories or barely having food? Or people growing up in genuine poverty, war zones, etc. the vast majority who find a way to sort out a life for themselves? There are millions of people out there around the world who have it so much worse and live on annoymously yet because these cowardly school shooter types decide to run away from the hardness of life and think, "I will kill others, make everyone afraid, they will talk about me forever, and I will be immortal," we give them what they want and make them immortal via the news, forums, conversations, etc.

Maybe after these kind of incidents we (as a society) need to talk about the victims, celebrate their lives, and force the shooters into obscurity (they coud just be Loser X) like different ancient tribal cultures would banish someone to the wilderness. I don't know if it would do any good but I sure would feel better!

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Post by LilWabbit » Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:07 am

Desundial wrote:To me it's pointless to debate whether the parents are at falt, the teachers, the schools, society etc. It's the shooters falt. period. He deserves nothing but scorn, and certainly no sympathy. In my opinion, like in similar shootings like virginia tech etc he's just another narcisistic, emotionally crippled (i.e. no empathatic ability) teenager (as if they aren't narcisistic enough) too absorbed in his own unhappiness and frustration and need to feel powerful and be able to even receive any help.
I genuinely sympathize with, and in fact share, your anger. However, narcissistic and emotionally crippled teenagers who wallow in their own misery do not simply pop out of the blue. Either the killer was a harmless loner who suddenly just flipped out, or he has been, for years, a potential killer-in-the-making. In the latter and more likely case, there are various underlying causes increasing the propensity for the killer to decide to kill. These causes need to be identified and addressed well in advance. However, you are absolutely right to stress that none of those underlying causes "compel" him to kill, or override his independent choice on the matter. The moral and legal blame rests with him and him alone.
Desundial wrote:Well, news flash - life is imperfect yet most people find their way to deal with that and muddle on. What about the post-war generation, so many growing up without parents or with violent memories or barely having food? Or people growing up in genuine poverty, war zones, etc. the vast majority who find a way to sort out a life for themselves? There are millions of people out there around the world who have it so much worse and live on annoymously yet because these cowardly school shooter types decide to run away from the hardness of life...
I feel this whole "hardness of life" and "cold competitive society" whining indulged by both wishy-washy psychiatrists and anti-establishment media is little more than myth, and a rather dangerous myth at that. As I have been at pains to suggest, it could well be the very opposite, "the easiness of life" and absolute "parental non-resistance" throughout one's childhood that is partially responsible in creating monsters - youth without any restraint-mechanisms, deterrents or constructive engagements holding them back from contemplating theatrical acts of violent crime.

The post-war generation as well as the faceless masses in the "developing world" are, in fact, a case in point. Their main concern was/is day-to-day survival and the rebuilding of communities, compelling them to exercise great discipline and solidarity, and to impart discipline and a sense of community to their children well. It is precisely the popcorn & porn generation to which I proudly belong which finds it exceedingly difficult to respect and consider anyone or anything that does not evoke instant emotional thrill. Boredom begins to form the defining sentiment of everyday life. Rules, standards, values, student hardships, work, boring masses grinding on with their mundane routines and irritating individuals buzzing about certainly do not qualify to anyone as sources of instant emotional stimulation. Therefore they must be "wrong", "harmful" or even "threatening", rather than normal and healthy aspects of life. In postmodern ethics, pain is equal to evil and pleasure to good. If anything causes you pain, misery and boredom, it must be opposed and resisted. Pain is regarded hazardous to health rather than an integral component for character-building.

Since anything that provides instant emotional thrill is good, in the end the whole world must be evil and a threat. Small wonder that those in the younger generation who have been allowed (and who themselves allow) to carry this philosphy to the extreme are capable of perpetrating suicidal shooting-sprees. Such incidents however easily detract us from addressing the less violent yet no less serious symptoms (depression, drug-abuse, disillusionment, complacency, thrill-seeking, etc.) affecting the rank and file of our youth, stemming from the very same individualist value base, and the same parental over-concern for the physical comforts of the child at the expense of their spiritual development.

Gee, someone should put a stop to my avuncular rambling. I have no self-restraint and I solely blame my parents for it. :lol:

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Post by llewellyn » Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:50 am

Desundial wrote:To me it's pointless to debate whether the parents are at falt, the teachers, the schools, society etc. It's the shooters falt. period. He deserves nothing but scorn, and certainly no sympathy. In my opinion, like in similar shootings like virginia tech etc he's just another narcisistic, emotionally crippled (i.e. no empathatic ability) teenager (as if they aren't narcisistic enough) too absorbed in his own unhappiness and frustration and need to feel powerful and be able to even receive any help.
Sometimes I wonder - what if a schizophrenic person murders people because he or she is under delusion that they are Antichrists? Is there an independent moral choice there? As said, if outside conditions wouldn't effect the level of crime, the level of crime would be stable in all conditions, times, places and social classes. This is not the case, and has never been the case. So, outside conditions do effect the occurrance of crime very much, of course they do. And among these outside conditions are mental defects and illnesses of various degrees of seriousness. So, yes, if it would turn out that this killer was mentally ill I would feel more sympathy towards him than if he were competent. As it is, from the sound of it, it does seem that there were mental problems, perhaps a full blown illness, so he most probably wasn't totally competent in which case there wasn't a fully independent choice in the matter. This reasoning is in force even in that abomination that is the US criminal system.
Last edited by llewellyn on Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.


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