School Shooting in Finland!

[starviego]

Which is quite strange - seeing as people could tell them by their IRC-galleria names that same afternoon. And... their profiles were already gone early the next morning

Whose profiles were gone the next morning?

[Jukka Aho]

In numerous other school shooting events--Columbine, Erfurt, Red Lake, Dawson College, VTech--the earliest news reports oftentimes refer to other suspects being arrested or being seen by witnesses. Though within a matter of hours the official, 'lone nut' version emerges. It would be interesting to have been a Finnish reader who followed the story locally from the very first media reports.

You’re right – there were some early reports claiming that there was more than just one shooter – or at least some kind of collaborators rampaging the school with him. But since I’m not much of a conspiracy theorist, I fail to see why this should be anything else than the result of the victims possibly misinterpreting things in a chaotic situation and the evening rags doing a hackneyed job when trying to piece together unverified eyewitness accounts as fast as possible while the situation is still on.

[starviego]

Thank you for responding. Do you perhaps have these references saved, and could translate them into English? Were they print media, or on TV/radio? Were they quoting eyewitnesses or early police reports? Were they talking about more than one accomplice? What if many students' accounts were consistent with more than one shooter?

Isn't it possible that these early reports were true? As I have said, I have seen this phenomenom over and over, quite often coupled with a totally unrealistic feat of marksmanship by the supposed 'lone gunman.' At Virginia Tech, for example, the alleged killer--Cho Seung Hui--scored 125+ hits on victims out of 175(or 200) shots fired. For someone who had about an hour's worth of self-training, that's pretty impressive.

And shooting eight victims dead at Tuusuula with only one wounded(by gunfire), with all the dead shot center mass or in the head, once again implies a professionally-trained gunman, not some kid who got his weapon three weeks before.

[ajk]

As far as I could tell, there was nothing really pointing to a second shooter even early on in the interviews, but the police/army tactics always assume where there is one, there is another. Searching the whole area simply took a while and they couldn't positively say the situation is over, before then. Nor could the media during that time.

Also the sad fact is that shooting is pretty easy, if he was able to hit an orange at close range on his videos, he is going to hit people...

[Jukka Aho]

Thank you for responding. Do you perhaps have these references saved,

No, it was random newsbits / reports of eyewitness accounts / speculation / rumors in the early hours before more accurate information could be sourced. This commenter on Helsingin Sanomat website appears to have seen those as well – and has similar tendencies as you in questioning the validity of the official information.

Were they print media, or on TV/radio?

Sorry, can’t really remember any longer. At the time, I was following the events through tv (YLE and MTV3) and on the websites of Helsingin Sanomat, Iltalehti, and Ilta-Sanomat. There was also discussion, gossip and random links spreading through various IRC channels.

[sinikettu]

I dont hold with any conspiracy theory..
Those killed by this sick boy were shot at very close range...some victims had many bullets in their bodies...all the bullets were from his gun.
That was in the published medical reports.

Now we are ..Trying to answer the big question..Why??

Here is one attempt.
The writings of Pekka-Eric Auvinen according to experts.."are written in a reasonably intelligent manner but it certainly gives the impression that the writer is disturbed."...
So...What was it that disturbed the brain of a reasonably intelligent boy?

He seems to had his brain messed up by reading too many mixed up philosophies.
Any one of these philosophies might well be considered complicated and confusing..but put them altogether into one teenage brain...
OH ..nearly forgot..the Int Hesa article.
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Teachi ... 5231988892

[brindusa]

According to Boyes, there are societies on the outskirts of Europe, where trust in the local media is low.
These include countries such as Romania and Hungary.
People in these countries seek information from foreign media - reliable brands such as The Times, Boyes says. At the same time these people are nevertheless plagued by an inferiority complex.
"They feel that they are treated with disdain in the foreign media, and therefore, react in an emotional manner."

from
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Britis ... 5231977550

Outskirts and suburbs Ok, I'm Romanian. I wouldn't say the trust in the local media is low with us, although that may well be how it started, with the local media. But the internet has helped speeding up the process of looking for alternative sources of information, of asking ourselves to what extend that information has been digested already and by whom (read why and what for). I hope somebody has some statistics correlating the average income in my country and then the internet "coverage". It's not what you'd think, people from "low" classes have bought second hand computers to keep contact with their relatives and close friends working abroad. And I mean work, not "trades". I don't know much about other post-communist countries, but we have many split families, and, consequently, a rather significant amount of money sent to the country to help "those left behind". As if we should all leave our home/country.
My personal amazement is that although people say they don't trust the media, too many follow the lines drawn by the media. If they'd buy what the commercial says, would they buy the rest of "the show", too? Specialists should answer that, not me.
I'm talking for myself here, I don't trust the media, but not just that from my home country. Which is not to say I don't read it. Selectively, because that's the rule of the game, I have a life to live, too, and there is too much signal (figure out which is noise and which is true information ).
And I appreciate the prudence of Finnish authorities and the media with making public all sorts of detail which are hardly of use (although they may seem of interest) to common people. But which can affect the investigation, on the one hand, and the public perception, on the other. One of the reasons I moved to Finland is that I need to trust institutions which are functioning. Some call it a paternalist state, I can't judge that. I wouldn't trust institutions completely, probably because of the experience I've happened to have in Romania. (And by the way, I still respect my home country, because it's not all about social classes, economics, and politics. I don't have to prove to anyone that my country is "the best", as I don't have to prove that my parents are the best. I love them and that's enough.)
Plagued by an inferiority complex, it may be, I can't say. However, negative motivation doesn't result in negative outcome by necessity. Good think that such insightful phrases like "societies on the outskirts of Europe" help...

Forums like this one are also alternative sources of information. And, as such, they are also under the common sense pressure of the responsibility of public communication.

I'm sorry if this was off-topic, I meant it about the media - trustworthy or not - , and my personal experience is related to my country, that's all.

[sammy]

And shooting eight victims dead at Tuusuula with only one wounded(by gunfire), with all the dead shot center mass or in the head, once again implies a professionally-trained gunman, not some kid who got his weapon three weeks before.

Okay I was no longer going to partake in this conspiratory lunacy in any way, but here goes.

You can always speculate. That's one thing. Another thing altogether is the ability to bring this kind of vague "conspiracy-theories" into at least somewhat sane perspective. As I've pointed out before, if those killed had been, say, some "important business people" or politicians, world leaders, this sort of speculation might be justified at least on some level. (Not that the deed itself would have been a tad more acceptable.)

But for christssake, these were schoolkids, the headmaster and the school nurse. It is also very likely that the victims were 'chosen' quite randomly - whoever happened to be close to him, on his way. We can maybe never get an answer to that. But that unanswered question (why?) alone does not justify this kind of paranoid logic: "okay we don't know this for sure; therefore, there must be something else that we do not know - and if we don't know everything, someone must be hiding something!"

Without bordering on insanity yourself, could you come up with even one plausible explanation as to why a "professional gunman" would be a more likely alternative...? Especially bearing in mind these two points a) motive? b) where did he disappear, then?

Here is both the fuel and the downfall of most conspiracy theories: even if it's impossible for us to definitely prove that there wasn't someone else there, this is no reason to conclude that there was.

I wonder - is it just someone's own incapability to accept that "ordinary people" can commit such acts that leads some to endless speculation on government/media/Elvis/eyewitnesses "hiding something" in cases like this? That ANY other theory is acceptable except it was done by someone not much unlike ourselves, for no particular reason?

That much for conspiracy theories. Go on, all ye who wish

-

On a more general note - intelligence as such is no guarantee of 'sanity' or 'socially acceptable/moral behaviour'.

Sad, but sometimes there just is no answer to the question "why".

[antti_73]

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/uutiset/kotim ... id=1456976

According to police Auvinen was object of bullying for years. For me this is the reason why he constructed a parallel world folding some philosophies, ideologies and science fiction to his insane project of human selection. Luckily very few times these crazy theories lead to a massacre. Many cases of bullying end up with suicide. Not only in Finland (this is not a finnish affair). But owning a gun gave him power... and the rest is history.

We cant prevent a disturbed mind to kill people or himself. Social therapists can do nothing in those situations. So we have to stop pupils from bullying shoolmates because theyre different or fat or whatever else. They are killers too! cause they often drive somebody to despair and eventually to suicide.
Bullying is stictly connected to cultural values of the community and being different is considered as a refusal of these values. So the weirdo is the one who suffers a bullying not the bastard who perpetrates it.

This is the issue in this Jokela case: bullying as a phenomenon encouraged by the community.

[Jukka Aho]

According to police Auvinen was object of bullying for years. For me this is the reason why he constructed a parallel world folding some philosophies, ideologies [...]

Which came first – bullying or the strange ideologies? For example, according to some reports, he declared himself “a communist” already in the lower grades of elementary school. Not exactly something “normal” school kids usually do. While bullying (whatever it is supposed to entail in this case) should not be allowed, it’s easy to see how that kind of extraordinary out-of-the-norm behavior might have fueled it in the class.

[brindusa]

OH ..nearly forgot..the Int Hesa article.
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Teachi ... 5231988892

Thank you for this link, here's a quote

"The difference is not in the philosophical principles in the background, but rather in the interpretation of facts.

Sihvola has written high school textbooks himself. He would not restrict the handling of Nietzsche in schools because of the radical views of the philosopher.
"Nietzsche is part of general education for high school students, and the modern world cannot be understood without being acquainted with the thought of Nietzsche. It would be like refraining from dealing with Hitler or Stalin in history class."
Sihvola feels that it would be much more dangerous not to deal with Nietzsche in teaching.
"That would certainly be a disaster. Those who are interested in Nietzsche would seek out information on the Internet and other channels, with no quality control."
"The fact that high school students are engaged in thinking that radically calls into question the dominant culture is primarily a good thing. It is very important that school, as a community of some kind, offers a channel for it", Sihvola emphasises.

So it seems that the black box of interpretation is a better key to this problem. Banning books won't help, we had that under communism and it lled nowhere. Just that fewer had access to them and more to digested ideas, in a climate of oppression and "extra" conspiracies (read panic, frustrations, need to make sense while feeling others hide significant data).
Thinking there is something beyond what we're told is not something bad in itself. But we might as well think of the causes and effects of asking uncomfortable questions, not just of not letting out potentially uncomfortable information from official answers. I'm not saying it's not worth discussing, it is and thank you for this thread. Although I couldn't post anything here until now, I've been following your dialog and I've learned many things I hardly knew about.

I agree with Sammy. Also, if we can think of more than one effect (and more than one indented effect for whoever you think did that), we may well be thinking of more than one cause. And then focus on those which we can change.

[Hank W.]

I'd say kids ought to be taught more reagarding philosophy and different ideologies. Ignorance about stuff is quite dangerous. And maybe then self-learning too...

[antti_73]

Which came first – bullying or the strange ideologies?

You're right, he was already nutty before they started bullying him. However 10 years of bullying is no doubt the reason he developed such hate towards his schoolmates.

For example, according to some reports, he declared himself “a communist” already in the lower grades of elementary school.

Let's throw Marx in the fire with Plato and Nietzsche .

[antti_73]

The story has not been well covered here. Can anybody come up with a list of names of the dead and/or the wounded?

http://www.yle.fi/news/id75678.html

Criticism Over Jokela Shooting Coverage???
Not because it was too short??

[starviego]

But for christssake, these were schoolkids.... ... could you come up with even one plausible explanation as to why a "professional gunman" would be a more likely alternative...? Especially bearing in mind these two points a) motive? b) where did he disappear, then?

Here's your motive:

GLADIO
'You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game,' he said. 'The reason was quite simple. They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public, to turn to the State to ask for greater security. This is the political logic that lies behind all the massacres and the bombings which remain unpunished, because the State cannot convict itself or declare itself responsible for what happened.'
-"Vincenzo Vinciguerra, a convinced Fascist who was a member of the extremist Ordine Nuovo organisation and had close links with Gladio


As for what happened to the other shooters, there are several possibilities:

a) They were soon arrested but were then released on orders from above. (this happened at Columbine, VTech, and Red Lake)

b) They were killed in the school but police only reported on Auvinen's death. (this happened at Dawson)

c) They simply threw down their weapons and outer wear and pretended they were students/teachers fleeing the school.

d) They waited in the school for police confederates to find them and then disguised themselves as first responders(police, medical crew, etc.) and 'hid in plain site.'




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"You've got to be able to move quickly if you're running from Feds or special ops."
--Jeff Weise, Red Lake High School, 3-21-05, 10 dead