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aniorek
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Post by aniorek » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:42 pm

harrymalmberg wrote: Can't believe anyone would want to have the 'car speed' system as in Germany. The way of driving is totally insane - idiots 10 cm from your bumper at 170 km/hr etc.
My experience is totally different. German drivers are polite and predictable, no machos whatsoever. If you think otherwise, pay a visit to Poland or Czech Republic, you'll change your mind quickly (trucks racing, no driving culture, old fiats/skodas on the left lane, and many more excitements).

I spent 4 years in Munich, the BMW city. At that point I owned Peugeot 206. When driving, I used the left lane quite often and NO ONE has ever sat on my tail 10 cm behind me, forcing me to go to the right lane. I find driving in Germany totally relaxing. Speed limits are not necessary because of good quality roads and well-trained drivers that also know how to handle speedy cars.

Maybe it all boils down to the fact that some guys cannot stand other guys having faster cars and female drivers don't mind that - on the contrary. ;)

There are idiots everywhere, true. However, in my experience about 90% of German drivers know how to drive safely even at higher speeds.



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karel
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Post by karel » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:47 pm

harrymalmberg wrote:There were days - years ago - on the 2-lane roads where MANY Finnish drivers would just go out and pass using the middle of the road - and force oncoming traffic off to the shoulder direction so they would fit in the '3rd' center lane - one rarely sees that these days, fortunately
Obviously you haven't lately been driving from Helsinki towards Loviisa, have you? When you get off the freeway a couple of tenths of kilometers before Loviisa that still happens. Every day.

harrymalmberg wrote: Maybe you should get off your beloved bahn and try some normal 2 lane roads - particularly in winding, hilly country - and then contend with one of thes clowns literally trained with the "ME POWERFUL, YOU SLOW - here I come" - You yourself of course driving at the proper speed - whatever it is.
You can't really compare these kind of roads with the Autobahn in Germany.
Besides that... It's actually statistically proven that liberating the speed on the freeway reduces the amount of accidents AND the amount of traffic jams.
Of course, I agree... IF an accident happens, the higher speed will increase the severity of the accident, but the amount of accidents with (fatal) injuries DOES drop.
In the Netherlands the amount of traffic jams in the Randstad has dramatically increased when they dropped the speed from 100 to 80. It took only a few months for the government to bring it back to 100 and now they're even debating to bringing it back to 120 (albeit outside the rush hour). I guess that says enough.

harrymalmberg
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Post by harrymalmberg » Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:15 pm

Oh, just go to Estonia for a road trip and you see this.
Went from Tallinn to Narva to Vasknarva to Tartu to Tallinn last May and all was OK save the 2-laner north of Tartu where some behaved like the Finns of the late 70's.

As for other countries have driven intensively throughout Europe and in last few years thousands and thousands of km in Slovenia, Italy, Austria and Switzerland. The basic scourge was Italian motorcyclists and Italian drivers on the Strada where they emulate their German friends with the 'on the bumper' driving.

But to allow 150-200 km/hr to be legal has got to be insane - and no one has commented on what you do when someone in front of you is driving at ONLY 100-110 - do you really climb up on their bumper and 'jump up and down' thereby endangering maybe a dozen cars?

And then there is the whole fuel and emission consequences of 120+ driving.

What the HELL is the big hurry anyhow? We're all going to the same place in the future - and I have met really VERY FEW people in my life that ever really DID something worthwhile with the 5-10-15-20-30 mins they might 'save' driving like maniacs!

DMC
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Post by DMC » Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:30 pm

> Well when the car is driven by the jerk German driver it is the 10 cm that becomes the RELEVANCE - sometimes it slips back to 15 cm

Again ignoring your gross exageration, that is exactly what I said. Driving too close is a problem. Driving fast isn't, in the right circumstances.

> Maybe you should get off your beloved bahn and try some normal 2 lane roads

There are speed limits on those roads.

> By the way - when some car is 'out in that left lane' (surely doing some reasonable speed anyhow) - is it the way to get them to the right - to crawl RIGHT UP on their bumper flashing lights, blowing horns, etc,?? - that is not only dangerous - but also shows the rear driver to be a mental case

True, but the problem is driving too close, regardless of the speed.

> The way to do it is stay back the correct distance and flash lights every once in a while - it works for me - I may have to 'suffer' and only go at 100-110 for awhile - but so what?

I agree with you, but if someone else chooses to tailgate the problem is they are driving too close, not that they are driving too fast.

> What the HELL is the big hurry anyhow?

If someone is driving safely, what does it matter to you what speed they do?

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mCowboy
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Post by mCowboy » Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:35 pm

speed does not kill people, bad driving does.
Get in there...

harrymalmberg
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Post by harrymalmberg » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:21 pm

> Well when the car is driven by the jerk German driver it is the 10 cm that becomes the RELEVANCE - sometimes it slips back to 15 cm

Again ignoring your gross exageration, that is exactly what I said. Driving too close is a problem. Driving fast isn't, in the right circumstances.
There really isn't exaggeration - these distances are often about 1 meter at 100+ kph - the 10/15cm is poetic license.
> Maybe you should get off your beloved bahn and try some normal 2 lane roads

There are speed limits on those roads.
But the yahoos 'trained' to be able to do whatever they want at any speed they want sure don't give a damn
> By the way - when some car is 'out in that left lane' (surely doing some reasonable speed anyhow) - is it the way to get them to the right - to crawl RIGHT UP on their bumper flashing lights, blowing horns, etc,?? - that is not only dangerous - but also shows the rear driver to be a mental case

True, but the problem is driving too close, regardless of the speed.
Hardly - I did take Physics 101 and a lot higher - and the under one car length distances between 2 cars at 100+ kph allows for zero maneuvarability - highway officials have been wondering for years what dunces are not able to understand all the educational they've been doing for 50 years about one car length per approx 10 kmph/mph etc - is it possible ...?

And btw - what IS the proper behavior for coming up on someone in the left lane driving slower than you'd like - climb on their bumper and have a temper tantrum?
> The way to do it is stay back the correct distance and flash lights every once in a while - it works for me - I may have to 'suffer' and only go at 100-110 for awhile - but so what?

I agree with you, but if someone else chooses to tailgate the problem is they are driving too close, not that they are driving too fast.
See above - speed is incredibly important - in terms of 'mass x velocity' and reaction time - that isn't really too difficult to understand

> What the HELL is the big hurry anyhow?
If someone is driving safely, what does it matter to you what speed they do?
Exactly my point - they are not driving safely and running up on someone in left lane and I am somewheres behind in right lane - minding my own business - but if they have their crash - I'm dead as is my 2 year old granddaughter riding in the car.

My comments are not coming from watching a Die Hard movie - but from what I see on the highway with my own eyes which makes it all close enough to have drastic consequences for me and the ones I care about!

nidhal
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yes

Post by nidhal » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:20 am

it´s true! so stupid loi here! i see many people drive so fast in helsinki!!! i remember when u feel the speed in autobahn in germany :) the best feeling! not like here like ur making a driving test!!!

DMC
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Post by DMC » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:24 am

> There really isn't exaggeration - these distances are often about 1 meter at 100+ kph

Again: the problem isn't speed. The problem is that these folks are driving too close. You can only fix this problem by having the cars further apart, because you cannot put the speed limit low enough for these sort of distances to be safe.


> But the yahoos 'trained' to be able to do whatever they want at any speed they want sure don't give a damn

- Nobody is trained "to do whatever they want".
- How people drive on normal roads has nothing to do with the absence of a speed limit on autobahns.
- A new law about something different (speed) is hardly the best way to alter the behaviour of people who ignore existing laws (about dangerous driving). Tackle the dangerous driving, and speed isn't a problem.


> Hardly - I did take Physics 101 and a lot higher - and the under one car length distances between 2 cars at 100+ kph allows for zero maneuvarability

You seem to consistently misunderstand what I am saying. Look, I AGRRE WITH YOU that driving too close is bad. I don't agree with you that driving quickly is necessarily bad.


>And btw - what IS the proper behavior for coming up on someone in the left lane driving slower than you'd like

I already said that your method is correct.


> See above - speed is incredibly important - in terms of 'mass x velocity' and reaction time

On an autobahn, you can effectively ignore many potential hazards such as the posibility of pedestrians stepping into the road. The dominating potential danger arises from the action of other drivers. In these circumstances, speed in itself is not important to reaction time. The important thing is relative speed. And if there is nobody nearby, what is the problem? What does it matter if mass x velocity is greater than at lower speeds?


> Exactly my point - they are not driving safely and running up on someone in left lane

OK, One more time: what you have a problem with is people driving too close, and that is a genuine complaint. If people kept an appropriate distance from the car in front, their speed wouldn't matter. Nobody would claim that it is OK to drive dangerously, but that doesn't mean you can't drive fast if circumstances permit. Fast is not the same as dangerous.

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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:29 am

DMC wrote: Fast is not the same as dangerous.
Spot on, spot on... :lol:
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.

harrymalmberg
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Post by harrymalmberg » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:07 am

- Nobody is trained "to do whatever they want".
- How people drive on normal roads has nothing to do with the absence of a speed limit on autobahns.
- A new law about something different (speed) is hardly the best way to alter the behaviour of people who ignore existing laws (about dangerous driving). Tackle the dangerous driving, and speed isn't a problem.

I am afraid that the yahoos who learn to drive with no limits and abuse it by driving badly (onto bumpers, weaving, etc.) are also 'learning' that they are King/Queen of the Road and it doesn't take too much imagination to realize that the same jerk that is on their bumper on the hilly road is the same one that was on the freeway.

The dominating potential danger arises from the action of other drivers. In these circumstances, speed in itself is not important to reaction time. The important thing is relative speed. And if there is nobody nearby, what is the problem?
The whole time I have been exactly talking about the more than significant number who drive VERY fast and are ALSO bad drivers.

Getting up on someone's bumper is more than bad.

At the same time everyone knows how many times someone inadvertently changes lane and finds someone already in it and then abrubtly gets back (and if they are honest they say they have done it themselves at least once). Reaction time and how it relates to speed is more than relevant! And mass x velocity becomes very important for the consequences.

I have seen the Bonneville Flats in Utah - now THERE is a good place to play games with speed.

But please realize, I am not misunderstanding. If almost all drivers (98-99%) were basically safe drivers - always proper distance even if they have to 'wait,' no weaving, always alert and not SMSing or playing with their GPS, and their cars themselves were documented to be SAFE and it's a 3 lane road (3 each way) then push the limit to whatever.

(I would NOT have no limit as Montana found out)

People really do learn very bad habits when there is whatever speed allowed. It seems no one here remembers the Finland of the late 60's and the 70's. We had NO speed limit. I, myself, made it from Muonio to Helsinki in something like 5 hours! But we also had a 'driving culture' that was totally insane - people making their own center lanes for passing at just about every opportunity, etc. It was surely worse than what some people talk about now in parts of E Europe.

Talk with Tielaitos and you will find that one important key in educating the public was to PUT speed limits. Finally finishing some of the motorways was also significant - not to say a kind of urbanization/civilization of the maajussi Finn - Finland was the most rural country Europe in western Europe - might still be - but the % living in cities grew enough that people realized they were not alone.

DMC
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Post by DMC » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:18 pm

> the same jerk that is on their bumper on the hilly road is the same one that was on the freeway.

So bad drivers are bad drivers everywhere, regardless of whether there is a speed limit or not. The absence of a speed limit in some places is not a factor.

> The whole time I have been exactly talking about the more than significant number who drive VERY fast and are ALSO bad drivers.

You have deen blaming the bad driving on driving fast. You haven't shown that fast driving causes bad driving. On the contrary, you have said that bad driving also happens on normal roads where speeds are much lower.

I have seen lots of people driving badly and slowly. I don't blame their bad driving on them driving slowly but by your logic I could do. In and of itself, speed (high or low) is not dangerous - it only becomes dangerous if the speed (high or low) is inappropriate to the conditions.

> At the same time everyone knows how many times someone inadvertently changes lane and finds someone already in it and then abrubtly gets back ... Reaction time and how it relates to speed is more than relevant!

Oh, I would love to see you try and prove that.
In your scenario, it is the relative speed of the overtaking and overtaken vehicles that is important. The absolute speed makes no difference whatsoever to the time available for either party to react.

Quin
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Post by Quin » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:36 pm

harrymalmberg wrote: Lotsa stuff in several posts about the autobahn etc
.
You Sir have pretty clearly never driving in germany for a prolonged time. You are so way off it is almost laughable.

I currently work around Munich and fly in and out there every week and enjoy the autobahn for 1.5 hour ride to the office. The roads there are very good and there is only no-limit on parts where you can easily do 200+ (very little entrances and not to many turns).

The only times you get someone up your ass is if your driving 100 in a free zone and stick on the left lane. People here are used to other cars driving fast. It is called anticipating. If you see a fast car coming you move over the right or stay on the right. Think right, drive right. Very simple

The problem is when Pekka the Fin or Arthur the Austrian drives there and drives like they drive at home (essp finns like to hog the left lane) and dont move when they can. The amount of times you get clueless foreigners holding up traffic is amazing. They make it dangerous by not adjusting to the driving style here cause they never learned it and driving like they drive at home.

Also you do realise that most speedlimits where set due to the oilcrisis and scaresness of oil and not because of safety. I think the system in germany is perfect and the figures also show that per km of road there is less accidents in germany then in the surrounding countries.

Yes ofcourse you get the odd nitwit up your ass now and then (most of the times you should have moved) but you get those in every country. Even i do it if you wont move after i put on my left blinker and flashed you (almost never needed with germans). But dont make it sound like everyone does.

In the weekends when i drive in finland all the left lane hoggers drive me crazy. Esspecially when they are driving under or exactly the speedlimit. Does that mean all finns are tossers on the road? By your generalizations yes.

O and then an American starting about fuel emmisions and CO2 etc. Less blind believing and idolising of Gore please...

harrymalmberg
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Post by harrymalmberg » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:39 pm

We have somehow been talking past each other.

Higher speeds reduce EFFECTIVE reaction time PERIOD - if something in front of you has an abrupt stop or change in direction - you have LESS time to react. Très simple! (The relative speeds are going to change dramatically - and it seems you are forgetting that there are 2-3-4-5 'innocent' cars in the vicinity that previously were not involved and suddenly become so!)

If something happens the resulting forces released are increased with speed. Très simple.

Allowing NO speed limit lets the Yahoos know there are no limits - and since they are Yahoos, they continue that behavior anywhere. One doesn't need an MS in Social Psychology to know that.

Have a look at:

http://www.roadtripamerica.com/Defensiv ... Rule04.htm

And also remember - 120+ speeds have SIGNIFICANT effects on CO2 emissions and fuel usage! Matters we are supposed to be paying attention to!

And again - what's the damn hurry? - 120-130 kph is gd 'fast.' This question is just an 'aside'

Quin
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Post by Quin » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:47 pm

harrymalmberg wrote: If something happens the resulting forces released are increased with speed. Très simple.
Yes true but having speed limits does NOT, and i repeat NOT, mean that there are less accidents. That is narrowminded thinking as alot more factors are in play.
harrymalmberg wrote: And also remember - 120+ speeds have SIGNIFICANT effects on CO2 emissions and fuel usage! Matters we are supposed to be paying attention to!
Supposed to be paying attention too. According to who? the media, the governments, the greenies? Car emmisions are only a very very minor part of the CO2 emmission. Shipping is alot worse then the whole car industry fe. But that is another topic
harrymalmberg wrote: And again - what's the damn hurry? - 120-130 kph is gd 'fast.' This question is just an 'aside'
For you 120 to 130 might be gd fast. I think it is average and on good highways pretty slow.

Last but not least to lighen it up.

Speed doest kill. The instant stopping does

DMC
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Post by DMC » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:51 pm

> Higher speeds reduce EFFECTIVE reaction time PERIOD ... if something in front of you has an abrupt stop or change in direction - you have LESS time to react.

No. The time you have to react depends on the relative speed of the vehicles. If you think otherwise, run a few numbers.

> it seems you are forgetting that there are 2-3-4-5 'innocent' cars in the vicinity that previously were not involved and suddenly become so!)

Quite the opposite. I am saying that relative speeds are important. That is relative to the other traffic, regardless of whether there is 1 other vehicle or 100. I am saying that the maximum safe speed varies according to conditions (including the amount of other traffic) and does not depend on some number stuck on a pole. I am saying that in the right conditions (including the absence of nearby traffic) there is nothing inherently dangerous in driving fast.

> Have a look at:

> http://www.roadtripamerica.com/Defensiv ... Rule04.htm

Those numbers apply to a STATIONARY hazard. Stationary hazards on autobahns are visible from great distances, and of course you should slow down if such a hazard is present. Those calculations do NOT apply to the actions of other traffic, such as a vehicle changing lane. For that you have to calculate using relative speeds.

Try an example. A 2-lane autobahn. You are driving at 150 KPH in the left lane. You are 50 metres behind a car in the right lane when it pulls into the left lane ahead of you. How much time do you have to react to avoid running into the back of it?
Of course, you can't answer the question without knowing how fast the other car is driving, because it is your relative speeds that matter. If the other car were doing 149.9 kph you would have to be clinically dead not to react in time.

> And again - what's the damn hurry?

And again - what's the problem with driving fast if you can do so safely?
Anyway, try running some numbers. Here's an example. My last commute was 112 km each way, and I could cut 10 minutes off my journey time by driving a little quicker. That's 20 minutes per day, 100 minutes per week. With flexitime that gave me an extra day off every month or so, without extending the out-of-house length of my working day. If I had been commmuting on autobahns I could have saved even more time.


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