The role of English in the Nordic countries

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Jukka Aho
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The role of English in the Nordic countries

Post by Jukka Aho » Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:49 pm

Just stumbled upon this post in soc.culture.nordic and thought it was kind of interesting.


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The role of English in the Nordic countries

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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:31 am

But you're not welcome, you're a potential problem. :twisted:
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Post by interleukin » Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:05 am

Local countries may jump up and down and demand in the local language - but in a practical sense Statoil was correct.
Dont see why English should be any more practical than the happy homemade "nordic" (a mix of Swedish, Danish, Norwegian) people have been using all this time. If you had ever been to a nordic meeting, you would know that there is absolutely no need for English, and using English just sounds like a silly idea.

The only exception might be the Finnish person whose Swedish is not good enough for them to use it sober. But that can always be fixed. :)
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Post by littlefrank » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:04 pm

Statoil doesn't have a sense of humour, they should have sent further correspondence with the fisherman in Zulu. :twisted:

But Benelux uses english has their 'official' language, which is not surprising considering the acrimony between the Waloons and flemish speakers. I also wonder whether Benelux will soon be choosing between 'flwanelux' or 'waflnelux'?
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Post by Rosamunda » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:02 pm

Well it could be because the language of the sea (ie international waters) is, like the language of the air, English. BTW Finland's oil company - Neste - uses English as its company language. And I have heard from many of my students (learning English, in both public and private sector) that they use English most often these days when speaking to Estonians. Apparently Estonians now refuse to converse with Finns in Finnish. It could be that the increasing economic importance of the Baltic States in Nordic business is diminishing the importance of old style Scandi-speak.

I remember when I was working in IT in France and one of my colleagues received an email in English :shock: from a French colleague :lol: So he asked me to get my "Finnish boyfriend" to translate his email reply into Finnish (which I did) and he then sent that back to his colleague :D

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Post by sammy » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:24 pm

ronbladholm wrote:As for culture and language - the English introduction of 'please' may start to soften the 'army sergeant approach' of most Finns whn requesting favors, services and help.
Pardon me for protruding, but courtesy in Finnish has nothing whatsoever to do with an apparent solution of "English vocabulary import". Of course, there are people who are blunt but that doesn't mean Finnish as a language wouldn't have the means for saying the equivalent of "please". If someone won't use them when appropriate, well then he/she is just being an oik; the language itself is not to blame.

As for using English in the Nordic context... for those situations where (let's say) the Finns and the Icelanders in the discussion aren't all that comfortable with "nordiska", English may be a convenient tool as it sets everyone on the same "foreign language level"*. Otherwise, the common nordiska will do as well. So it depends. (edit: ah, Interleukin already said this.)

*) I mean, for example my own English isn't at all bad but nevertheless it will always remain, to some extent, a foreign language to me; in discussions with native speakers I do feel that I'm not on the same level with them regarding the small nuances and so on. Similarly, even though I do speak and understand Swedish, I still can't help but feel a bit of a simpleton when talking with natives (in case of Swedish this feeling is more pronounced than with English...) In everyday life this has little if any importance, but were I to negotiate some really important issues I would actually much prefer using my native Finnish.

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Post by sammy » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:28 am

ronbladholm wrote:All languages in the world have the theoretical semantics to express the idea of please, but the fact that Finns DON'T find it really tells the situation.
*sigh*
sammy wrote:If someone won't use them when appropriate, well then he/she is just being an oik; the language itself is not to blame.
Anteeksi, mutta voisitko ystävällisesti kertoa mikä tuossa ylläolevassa oli niin vaikeaa ymmärtää? :wink:

Finns don't this, Finns don't that... sorry but in many cases, I would maintain it could be as much a question of you not having enough insight into the culture and the details of our language to understand that you are asked something politely. But as said, it is of course not anything strange if some particular person does not use polite expressions. Too bad if you've been unlucky enough to meet only bad-mouthed and linguistically challenged Finns who "do not use" courtesy in language.

Simplifying a bit, some non-English speaker might deduce by the presence of the word please that "Please find the highest cliff and dive" is a friendly and polite utterance.

Now can you stitch together a Finnish sentence that expresses the same idea? Or do you think that the above is 'untranslatable' (or that the necessary words and expressions would be somehow "archaic")

Translation exercise, from English to Finnish

1) (the jolly cliff-diving suggestion above) _____________________

2) Could I have one more cup of tea, please? __________________

Come on, they are very easy :D

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Post by raamv » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:32 am

ronbladholm wrote: All languages in the world have the theoretical semantics to express the idea of please, but the fact that Finns DON'T find it really tells the situation.
What a crock of B*ull is this? There are many languages where the nuance of please is embedded in the sentence just like in Finnish!! and Finns are way more "polite" eliminating the necessity of the fake "please" in other customs..
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Post by sinikettu » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:06 am

sammy wrote:. Too bad if you've been unlucky enough to meet only bad-mouthed and linguistically challenged Finns who "do not use" courtesy in language.
I am sure we have had this debate before (probably several times)..

Many times I have heard Finns terminate a request with the word..."kiiti".= "thanks"..this serves in the same way as "please".

"haluaisin tämän kiiti"
"I would like one of those (that one), thanks!"...

I have also noticed that they can, when deemed neccesary, snarl the word "kiiti" or "kiitos" when they request response was a bit slow. :wink:
People do not become more irritable as they grow old - they simply stop making the effort to avoid annoying others.

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Post by sammy » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:02 am

sinikettu wrote:I have also noticed that they can, when deemed neccesary, snarl the word "kiiti" or "kiitos" when they request response was a bit slow. :wink:
:shock: But surely not, that would be cars... sarcoph... sargass... well, something that us expression-deficiency ridden brutes would never ever be able to use... must be some foreign influence :D

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Post by Jukka Aho » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:08 am

sinikettu wrote:Many times I have heard Finns terminate a request with the word..."kiiti".= "thanks"..
ITYM kiitti (with two t’s!), which is a colloquial form of “kiitos”...
sinikettu wrote:this serves in the same way as "please".

"haluaisin tämän kiiti"
"I would like one of those (that one), thanks!"...
For some reason, kiitti sounds a bit strange to my native ears when used in those kind of sentences... whereas kiitos would be unremarkable. (Perhaps it’s just me, though.)
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Rob A.
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Post by Rob A. » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:19 am

sinikettu wrote:Many times I have heard Finns terminate a request with the word..."kiiti".= "thanks"..this serves in the same way as "please".

"haluaisin tämän kiiti"
"I would like one of those (that one), thanks!"...

I have also noticed that they can, when deemed neccesary, snarl the word "kiiti" or "kiitos" when they request response was a bit slow. :wink:

Well, for what its worth in my Finnish class we had to compose some simple sentences simulating a request for coffee and something to eat.

The instructor's response (...and he's a Finn from Helsinki) ...to what I came up with was that is very good, but you're being a bit too blunt. It would be better to add "kiitos" or work in an expression like "olette hyvää"...

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Post by raamv » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:20 am

and lets not forget the "saisinko"!! how many languages can you really find this form of benign request with utmost pleasantry! :D
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Post by Karhunkoski » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:26 am

sammy wrote:If someone won't use them when appropriate, well then he/she is just being an oik; the language itself is not to blame.
I agree strongly with this Sammy. The language isn't to blame for peoples' bad manners.

As an example, I remember having a Finnish friend as a guest in the UK many years ago. He had fluent English. We arrived at the beer, where I announced, "I'll get the first round!".

"I take a beer!", my friend boomed at the barmaid.

"You'll get nothing until you find some manners", replied the barmaid.

The word "please" was available for use in the language being used, it was just the speaker that chose not to use it. No fault of language! :D
Political correctness is the belief that it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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Post by Jukka Aho » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:31 am

Rob A. wrote:"olette hyvää"...
It’s a fossilized, polite pattern of speech... There are only really two forms in active use: ole hyvä! (singular) and olkaa hyvä! (plural or polite singular).

While the literal translation for that would be “be good!” – which admittedly does not make much sense – a native speaker would not normally think of the literal meaning... except perhaps in jest.
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