Finland-anti foreigners attitudes?????

[Karhunkoski]

At the time I believe it was a case of don't mention it for fear of making the situation worse.

[mCowboy]

At the time I believe it was a case of don't mention it for fear of making the situation worse.

imagine if the doctors acted the same way...

[Karhunkoski]

Joke aside, the situation will come and the flow-hatted auntie liberals will have their way, the pendulum will swing too far in one direction......and here's the scary bit.............the pendulum has built up so much potential energy that it swings back fast in the other direction, too fast for it to stop in "sensible middle politics land", and continues swinging up to the right, and then you get the big problems

Hiding problems or indeed just ignoring them doesn't work. Better to tackle them openly early on, even if it upsets the flower-hats, so that we can all live happily together, in peace, and not at risk from extreme politics and the ugly events that follow.

[Rosamunda]

Finland had the highest murder rate per population in western europe a couple of years ago, i would presume it was mainly native finns commiting those crimes, using crime is always an easy way to try and put a certain viewpoint across.

so we should ignore these facts and forgive those people for just "being misunderstood"

- from 2000 onwards, 40% of the rapes are committed by non-Finns in Helsinki
- from 2000 onwards, 30% of the robberies and extortions are committed by non-Finns in Helsinki
- from 2000 onwards, 17% of the severe assaults and batteries are committed by non-Finns in Helsinki
- from 2000 onwards, 14% of the murders and manslaughters are committed by non-Finns in Helsinki

According to the Helsinki Police, the violent crimes committed by non-Finns tend to be more cruel than those committed by Finns.

8.6% of the people in Helsinki are non-Finns. Put that in perspective, when you think about why some Finns don't want immigrants in Finland.

http://www.hs.fi/kuva/1135233947201

OK so first of all....

those statistics refer to convictions... not crimes committed, or crimes reported. So (and here I am thinking of similar statistics from France) those numbers do not include crimes committed by Finns that are either NOT reported or do not lead to a conviction. For all kinds of reasons, it has been shown (in other countries) that foreign born people who commit crimes are more likely to be reported and convicted than "locals".

Secondly... the murder figures are not statistically relevant. The numbers are too small. One "incident" by a Finn with dual nationality (yep... how are those recorded???) is enough to skew the whole thing. And of course, Estonians, Swedes, Americans, Brits, Russians are all "non-Finns" so don't let's just assume that these murderers, rapists and muggers are all refugees from another hemisphere (or even from outside the EU).

Thirdly... the HS crime figures refer to foreign-born criminals which you then - misleadingly - compare to the "8.6% of people in Helsinki are non-Finns". I am no statistician but I know my apples from my pears. Someone who was "born abroad" can easily be a Finnish national. In other words... you cannot compare the HS statistics to the percentage of non-Finns in Helsinki. It doesn't work. The percentage of FOREIGN BORN people living in Helsinki is much higher than 8.6% (but no, I don't know the precise number I am just explaining the math).

[mCowboy]

yeah, I know the whole "lie, damned lie, statistics" thing, however that still doesn't change the fact that relatively non-Finns commit more crimes than Finns. And the whole point of quickly translating the main points of HS article is to show Dodsy (because he/she thought I was making a some snotty comment based of feelings, not fact) that because of those figures of foreigners committing relatively more crimes, some Finns don't want more foreigners in Finland. The point was not to point fingers, just to explain the reasoning behind some Finns' thinking.

I'm sure all those things you mentioned are true, however I think (too) many rapes committed by foreigners go unreported, hence lowering the number on that area as well (as rape causes victims to hide in shame).

[Richard]

I don't know the precise number I am just explaining the math

So you teach American English nowadays Penelope?

[Rosamunda]

I do both.

But yes, you're right. I meant maffs.

[Richard]

I do both.

But yes, you're right. I meant maffs.

Kidding aside, are you asked to favour one or the other, or highlight the differences and teach both?

[Hank W.]

[
Thirdly... the HS crime figures refer to foreign-born criminals which you then - misleadingly - compare to the "8.6% of people in Helsinki are non-Finns". I am no statistician but I know my apples from my pears. Someone who was "born abroad" can easily be a Finnish national. In other words... you cannot compare the HS statistics to the percentage of non-Finns in Helsinki. It doesn't work. The percentage of FOREIGN BORN people living in Helsinki is much higher than 8.6% (but no, I don't know the precise number I am just explaining the math).

Which would help if you all read the original graph before mistranslating it. Eye in the hand now and reading the small print with a pinch of salt between the teeth. Which explicitly states that the "foreign-born" residents of Helsinki add up to 8,6% ... and also states implicitly "the amount of foreign-born arrested" which says nothing of convictions.

Correctly assessed - these satistics have nothing to do with nationality nor ethnicity per se - the figures include tourists but not people born in Finland regardless of background, so yes, a Finnish citizen born in Sweden is a foreign-born for statistical purposes here, and a foreign national's child born in Finland is not counted.

[otyikondo]

Not sure how relevant it is, but I find the term "murder" a tiny bit misleading in these cases anyway. I'd be interested to know the breakdown in homicides between "murder" and "man 1" (too much Law & Order, I'm afraid), and have the pure gut-feeling that actual premeditated MURDER will be a relatively small minority of these cases. And yet I've seen Helsinki described even as a murder capital of Europe.

The only figures I could dig up quickly from stat.fi were that in 2006 there were 37 cases of murha and 74 cases of tappo. In other words, just one in three cases of homicide are considered by the police and judiciary to be murder.

I'm not TOTALLY sure where I'm going with this, but I have a feeling this would be on the low side in international terms. Then again, perhaps I've also watched (no, I haven't, honest, I couldn't) too many episodes of Midsomer Murders, in which one is led to believe that people in an idyllic little village are going around doing each other in with total premeditation on a daily basis - sometimes twice before teatime.

Similarly, whilst full marks for Penelope in questioning statistics, I wonder if the difference between "foreign-born" and "foreign-born-and naturalised" is THAT great. Anyone got the numbers for how many of the so-called foreign population have gone the whole nine yards? It's moot anyway, as Hank has pointed out, but even so, I don't think it would have added more than, say, 1%-point to the numbers even if they WERE supposed to be only the real furriners in that 8.6%.

I can't believe more than 10% of the "foreign population" have taken citizenship. But maybe I'm all wrong.

[Hank W.]

I think they spell "murder" when they mean "homicide". Starting from from "oops he died" gross negligence kuolemantuottamus ... so that could even count in traffic accidents.

Statistics are fun, regardless of if its used for evidence or excuse.

[Andrew_S]

so we should ignore these facts and forgive those people for just "being misunderstood"

- from 2000 onwards, 40% of the rapes are committed by non-Finns in Helsinki
- from 2000 onwards, 30% of the robberies and extortions are committed by non-Finns in Helsinki
- from 2000 onwards, 17% of the severe assaults and batteries are committed by non-Finns in Helsinki
- from 2000 onwards, 14% of the murders and manslaughters are committed by non-Finns in Helsinki

According to the Helsinki Police, the violent crimes committed by non-Finns tend to be more cruel than those committed by Finns.

Back in about '98 I heard YLE radio report that the crime rate among foreign residents in Finland was lower than the general rate except for traffic offences, where it was higher among the foreigners.

Things have changed a lot. I wonder whether 10 years ago the average foreign resident was a better type of person than they are today.

Those statistics are very telling.

[Rosamunda]

"the amount of foreign-born arrested" which says nothing of convictions.

aha! OK I misread. But if this is the case (ie arrests, rather than convictions) then I would argue that these statistics are indeed quite telling.... IOW... if you are a foreigner you are more likely to be arrested on suspicion of committing a crime that if you are a Finn. And I have read similar trends in other countries. It would be interesting to know how many of those arrests did actually lead to convictions.... or even deportation (which in the case of the UK was - embarrassingly for the Home Office - almost zero).

[Rosamunda]

***OFF TOPIC***

I do both.

But yes, you're right. I meant maffs.

Kidding aside, are you asked to favour one or the other, or highlight the differences and teach both?

When companies or public organisations order English lessons they would specify if they wanted a British, American, etc native speaker but most don't (they just ask for native English speakers). I have had one or two courses where individuals specified British English, it is unusual but not unheard of (eg: in organisations working with the EU for example or in companies where the in-house style guide specifies a preference for British English). When I'm teaching I try and give alternative spellings, syntax, vocabulary (and my laptop dictionary gives both spellings and pronunciation for both) but I'm sure I miss a few. I worked in a US company for 20 years (not as a teacher) and lived in the USA for one year but I am no expert on US English. OTOH GB English seems to be adopting many many Americanisms (like split infinitives, "-izations" etc) so I try to keep up to date. Today a student complimented me on my Finnish pronunciation now, that has definitely NEVER happened before (my kids crease up every time I say something in Finnish) !!!! I think they were just being nice!

[mrjimsfc]

Maybe the Finnish people would do well to listen to what the "perussuomalaiset" have to say. (Strong words from just another foriegner

No wonder you left. A man who practices what he preaches!
/get me pointy cape

Actually, although I spoke Finnish quite well and loved the people, country (even the cold!) and the lifestyle, I didn't want to be considered as "another foriegner trying to get a KELA card." I don't like to watch as the Finland I knew and loved slowly becomes like so much of the rest of the world that I have seen. I suppose that one of these days I will have to admit that Finland and its people no longer stand on a pedestal above the rest of the world (but I don't have to like it).