WORK IN FINLAND

[Karhunkoski]

You know, when in Rome you behave like roman.

The problem is, Finland isn't Rome, it's just a little-known about country stuck in an inhospitable part of Europe, crippled by an obscure language. My excuse for loving the place is Finnish blood, I still find myself asking foreigners why on earth they chose to come and live here

Finland has a shortage of labour in some areas, my company also struggles to find the right people (Finnish-speaking or not), but people like Hank keep telling people that there are no jobs in Nowheremäki (That's a joke, it's very difficult to even get an interview without someone giving the nod to say, "I know him, he's ok").

I fully agree that immigrants should learn the language, impossible to fully integrate without learning it...but the big problem is...it's very difficult to learn Finnish to fluency without living here, and even if you live here it takes a couple of years of to pick it up. So what you're asking someone to do is leave their area of professional expertise for 2 years, spend 6-12 months on a full time language course, then another 12-18 months talking like a 3 year old, before they can get back on the career ladder. Meanwhile, their skills get outdated, their knowledge of their market drifts, their mindset slips away from what it used to be....not to mention the salary they have gone without. Not such an attractive option is it?

As far as I can see, some Finns have noticed the problem. 3 native born Finns (2 of them in senior positions) have suggested to me that Finnish is a *crap* language, and that people must learn English if Finland is ever to be taken seriously in the world AND maintain the economy (on the basis that Finnish is difficult to learn, unlike French or German it isn't taught extensively outside of Finland). That shocked me, however I still know 100s of other Finns who think like Tiwax

I'm not sure what the answer is, and to be honest, I don't really care. I just feel that Finns who have a strong opinion about the perfect immigrant profile, should also be aware of the stark reality and unachievable expectations that may affect the future of Finland.

[Tiwaz]

I also find some of your comments insulting Tiwas! do you think you have more immigrants thne other european countries? that you kick them into a bottomless pit? and the say you want them to speak finnish/swedish or be the odd one out? i also question your place on a forumm for foreigners when you clearly have a grudge against them. i knew many more Finns in England then english in Finland. Did we kick them into a pit? no! they were all in job and housing without having to join the Kela "merry-go-round"

First, no I do not presume. I am quite certain Finland has rather little immigrants. Which makes it so much more apparent how poorly prepared most are to deal with living in country which does not resemble their home at all.

Don't YOU think you would be odd one out when, unless you try to stick to small group of immigrants, you are only one unable to discuss in local language?
I have no grudge towards anyone, but I have noticed all too common attitude amongst some people even in this forum that it is somehow duty of Finland or Finns to adjust to those who deign to immigrate here. Or that local language and culture are somehow irrelevant to level that person dealing with customers, who are by and large natives, would have no problems being unable to speak to them in their native language. Yes, I am exaggerating the point slightly, but sadly there is less need than would be desirable.

And kicking in the pit is not quite literal sense. But you are in bottomless pit if you move in, not speaking language, having no idea on how culture works and without any solid job.

By the way, did those finns who moved to England speak english or finnish there?
And how well they would have done if they refused to speak english...

[Hank W.]

stark reality and unachievable expectations

As I said: They have a "shortage" because they're too damn picky.

They want someone with fluent Finnish or they want someone professional for the job. Either or if you can't have both. Learning foreign languages has for long been seen as the "way ahead".

If you can't get by with in the minimum with English you're considered a bit of a dolt. But on the other hand there is the fear of being overrun by the global coca-cola culture... so you have the schizophrenic attitude as a result.

[Hank W.]

And kicking in the pit is not quite literal sense.

Well, there is always space behind the sauna

[antstar]

I also find some of your comments insulting Tiwas! do you think you have more immigrants thne other european countries? that you kick them into a bottomless pit? and the say you want them to speak finnish/swedish or be the odd one out? i also question your place on a forumm for foreigners when you clearly have a grudge against them. i knew many more Finns in England then english in Finland. Did we kick them into a pit? no! they were all in job and housing without having to join the Kela "merry-go-round"

First, no I do not presume. I am quite certain Finland has rather little immigrants. Which makes it so much more apparent how poorly prepared most are to deal with living in country which does not resemble their home at all.

Don't YOU think you would be odd one out when, unless you try to stick to small group of immigrants, you are only one unable to discuss in local language?
I have no grudge towards anyone, but I have noticed all too common attitude amongst some people even in this forum that it is somehow duty of Finland or Finns to adjust to those who deign to immigrate here. Or that local language and culture are somehow irrelevant to level that person dealing with customers, who are by and large natives, would have no problems being unable to speak to them in their native language. Yes, I am exaggerating the point slightly, but sadly there is less need than would be desirable.

And kicking in the pit is not quite literal sense. But you are in bottomless pit if you move in, not speaking language, having no idea on how culture works and without any solid job.

By the way, did those finns who moved to England speak english or finnish there?
And how well they would have done if they refused to speak english...

Ok good post BTW, sometimes when we (me included) get radical or we exaggerate it tends to get other peoples back up. Yes finland has very few immigrants and maybe your feeling will differ when it becomes more popular (which i believe it will). But in places like UK you do get people expecting everything aand you it gets worse! you get immigrants from say Pakistan who actually want their own "mini" Pakistan! and they don't intergrate at all but have their own communities. Believe me Tiwaz thats when the real problems start.
i don't think the culture is so different as the biggest problem you can get is religion and that is not relevant here to the majority of immigrants.
And to answer your and Hanks question, Yes those Finns did speak english ( to varying levels), but as i know from my old employee they employed many poles who didn't speak a word of English! so i believe that they would of found jobs also if they were non english speakers.

P.S. Great post also Karhunkoski!

[Hank W.]

But you are in bottomless pit if you move in, not speaking language, having no idea on how culture works and without any solid job.

By the way, did those finns who moved to England speak english or finnish there?
And how well they would have done if they refused to speak english...

Well, of course the Finns have the edge of having watched BBC and Thames tv shows. I mean even being a couch potato you do hear "phrases" and learn some simple interactions. Even if you go to the tobacconists its by far easier to start a conversation without a phrase book.[/quote]

[Tiwaz]

But you are in bottomless pit if you move in, not speaking language, having no idea on how culture works and without any solid job.

By the way, did those finns who moved to England speak english or finnish there?
And how well they would have done if they refused to speak english...

Well, of course the Finns have the edge of having watched BBC and Thames tv shows. I mean even being a couch potato you do hear "phrases" and learn some simple interactions. Even if you go to the tobacconists its by far easier to start a conversation without a phrase book.

Then again, they could have stuck to speaking finnish MORE LOUDLY TO MAKE IT MORE CLEAR to foreigners...

[Hank W.]

I speak English well, I learn it from a book.

[Hank W.]

But in places like UK you do get people expecting everything aand you it gets worse! you get immigrants from say Pakistan who actually want their own "mini" Pakistan! and they don't intergrate at all but have their own communities.

Well, thats why we're quite nasty and want the wicked immigrants to learn Finnish so we don't end up "in places like UK".

[antstar]

But in places like UK you do get people expecting everything aand you it gets worse! you get immigrants from say Pakistan who actually want their own "mini" Pakistan! and they don't intergrate at all but have their own communities.

Well, thats why we're quite nasty and want the wicked immigrants to learn Finnish so we don't end up "in places like UK".

I certainly understand the "lets keep our own identity" thinking, but in this EU togetherness world we live in, how long we keep to our own luxuries only the future can tell. And the thing is, IF EU laws say the national language of Europe is now Spanish then what happens then?

[antstar]

In business, you do the math first on what you know!! not worry about what you dont know!!

What!! i worked for a large Cereal company for years and if we didn't predict the future and move with the times we would of died out years ago! "Not worry about what you don’t know"

no wonder your got ingrained in your thinking!!
The prediction of the future has nothing to do with reactive governments!!
and you cannot predict 100% accurately.. if you cant even differentiate between scenario predictions and strategy formulation you are as good as things written on paper!!
and just quoting only a text of what I wrote took it out of context that shows what kind of thinking that you have!!

The predicting the future and the re-active governments were two different points! and you cannot be much of a business man if you don't think about the future! How can i be ingrained in my thinking when i came fresh from a different country and see some areas in my opinion where things are wrong!
you can put all the you like it doesn't make you right!

[Karhunkoski]

Top stuff that Cory!

It's like the Finnish companies currently operating in China.....the company language isn't that of the locals.....As someone said, if Finland ends up being bought and has to play in the top league, English is sort of a prerequisite. Of course the girl on the kassa doesn't have to speak tongues, but elsewhere, one will have to.

[EP]

if Finland ends up being bought and has to play in the top league, English is sort of a prerequisite. Of course the girl on the kassa doesn't have to speak tongues, but elsewhere, one will have to.

Well, since kids start their first foreign language at the age of 9 (and in most cases that language is English) people more or less already speak also English.

[EP]

But that does not mean that I would like to be served in English.

[Hank W.]

And the thing is, IF EU laws say the national language of Europe is now Spanish then what happens then?

Flavit Jehovah et Dissipati Sunt