Lower Secondary grade average calculation HELP

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Rosamunda
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Lower Secondary grade average calculation HELP

Post by Rosamunda » Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:32 pm

When kids in 9th grade apply to lukio via the Joint Application System they have to submit their latest grade average.

So.... the sixty million dollar ( = 92.4 million euros) question is....

How is the grade average calculated? Where can I see the maths?
I am starting to think this system is not totally 100% transparent because I have never met a teacher or a rehtori who is capable of explaining it to me. If I understand correctly, only "academic" subjects are included in the calculation (please... which are academic? ...everything except cookery, art and PE??? What about ethics, civics, health etc??) Then some subjects are weighted differently to others.

I sat through a presentation on this about a year ago. The presentation was in Finnish but my SO was there too. So I just sat and smiled in the right places. But when, at the end of the explanation, I asked my husband for a recap, he told me that he hadn't really understood much and neither had anyone else, which was why so many people had been sking questions :evil:

It is slowly becoming apparently to me that my son is in a double whammy situation where Finnish Foreign Language (which he is not too good at) has a MUCH higher weighting than A1 English and A2 French which he does quite well in. I am also guessing that a subject called English MotherTongue (which is tagged on to the end of the school report) is not actually included at all in the academic grade average.

The "double" whammy is that although his English is fluent (he is a native speaker), he is getting the same grades (8s and 9s) as Finnish kids I know in Kerava who are "good " at English but way off native speaker level. It seems that the "international" schools are not using the same scale for grading as the Finnish schools. Unfortunately the Grade Average caulculation is the same for all. Unfair! :thumbsdown: And the lukio admission criteria are the same for all too.

Now I understand how kids who are barely able to write a coherent sentence in English are able to get into IB lukio, but immigrant kids with fluent English are not.... :twisted: ( <- rant )

The other whammy is that if your Finnish Foreign Language (FFL) gets good enough the school transfers you into a Finnish Mother Tongue (FMT) class. When that happens your subject grade takes a serious hit! So we are in the situation where my eldest is getting a 7 for FFL and his younger brother is getting a 6 for FMT even though the younger brother speaks Finnish waaaaay better. Unfair, again :thumbsdown:

Would be interested to see the algorithms though. Are they published? Anyone else been through all this yet?



Lower Secondary grade average calculation HELP

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Hank W.
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Re: Lower Secondary grade average calculation HELP

Post by Hank W. » Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:57 pm

Thats an interesting one.
OK, so easy peaches first. "lukuaineet" is
* äidinkieli ja kirjallisuus ,* toinen kotimainen kieli,* vieraat kielet,* uskonto tai elämänkatsomustieto,* historia,* yhteiskuntaoppi,*matematiikka,* fysiiikka,* kemia,* biologia,* terveystieto,* maantieto

This is then "all the subjects" average;
äidinkieli ja kirjallisuus, toinen kotimainen kieli, vieraat kielet, uskonto tai elämänkatsomustieto, historia, yhteiskuntaoppi, matematiikka,
fysiiikka, kemia,biologia, terveystieto, maantieto, liikunta, käsityö, kotitalous, musiikki, kuvataide
Last edited by Hank W. on Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lower Secondary grade average calculation HELP

Post by Hank W. » Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:02 pm

You have this, right ? http://www.oph.fi/koulutusoppaat/Koulut ... 2_2008.pdf
Looks then Etelä-Tapiola has at least the sample entrance test on their pages...

Seems for the IB's you need to fill in the extra applications

http://beeblebrox.edu.hel.fi/ressu/index.jsp?id=4 Ressu requires its own test (which you have to apply for beforehand you noticed) and they say the languages are english, 'mother tongue' that says English or Finnish and maths.

http://www.edu.vantaa.fi/tilu/etusivu.html
T Tikkurilan lukion IB-pääsykokeessa testataan kirjallisesti matematiikka, suomi ja englanti. Lisäksi hakijat haastatellaan englanniksi. Matematiikasta, suomesta ja englannista voi saada 3 pistettä kustakin. Motivaatiosta ja soveltuvuudesta voi saada yhden lisäpisteen. Pääsykoepisteet (max 10) lasketaan yhteen päättötodistuksen keskiarvon (max 10) kanssa. Yhteispisteiden (max 20) perusteella 30 parasta hyväksytään IB-linjalle. Keskiarvorajaa ei siis voi määritellä. Sen sijaan on päätetty, että pääsykokeesta tulee saada vähintään 5,5 pistettä.

Dunno if you get an extra point for motivation though answering "my mom told me to" :lol:
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Mook
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Re: Lower Secondary grade average calculation HELP

Post by Mook » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:02 pm

As I understood there is no averaging between schools, each school gives grades in isolation - also at lukio.

So native english speakers will get better when they're the only one. Another problem is that if a teacher fails to take a shine to a particular student, then...
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Rosamunda
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Re: Lower Secondary grade average calculation HELP

Post by Rosamunda » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:59 pm

Yes we're coping with all the paperwork and the entrance exams are all scheduled but it's the Joint Application System which is giving me the eebie-jeebies 'cos I WANT to understand how it works and it all seems way too mysterious for my liking. As you know, the kids have a different timetable every 6 weeks or so and they get reports every now and then and sometimes the subjects are graded and sometimes they are not ( :? ). The final grade point average takes some courses from 7th grade (like cooking because it is a 7th grade subject only) and then some courses are in 8th and 9th grade but some are only in 8th grade and some are only in 9th grade. For the courses which last two years the first year has a lower weighting in the final average than the score from the second year (ie ninth grade). So, you see, I have all these snippets of info but no clear picture. I have his last report card in front of me. There are over 50 grades on it (not included the ones that have letters rather than numbers for grades). If I add them all up and divide by 51, then I get more than the "official" average that he was given in school. And that is if I look at ALL SUBJECTS not just the academic subjects (which I am unable to identify). And overall, as I tried to explain above, he seems penalised by the fact that English is his mother tongue yet English mother tongue is not a "proper" subject, which is crazy when applying to an IB school where all subjects are taught in English and Finnish is optional anyway. He is also penalised by his Swedish grades even though he gave up Swedish in 8th grade (because it was taught in Finnish). Grrrr...

I need to call the school, I think. But am pretty sure they don't have the answers either.

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Re: Lower Secondary grade average calculation HELP

Post by Hank W. » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:09 am

penelope wrote:not just the academic subjects (which I am unable to identify).
Well it ain't the cooking, short list.
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ajk
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Re: Lower Secondary grade average calculation HELP

Post by ajk » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:40 pm

This here appears to be the appropriate law, and the city says the same about the grade average: "-- äidinkielen ja kirjallisuuden, toisen kotimaisen kielen, vieraitten kielten, uskonnon tai elämänkatsomustiedon, historian ja yhteiskuntaopin, matematiikan, fysiikan, kemian, biologian ja maantiedon arvosanojen keskiarvon osoittamassa järjestyksessä."

So the JSA should only care about the simple average of those subjects on the last report card - what grades are on the card and how different years may have been weighed is a different question. The "opinto-ohjaaja" of the school in question should be able to calculate what the final report card will look like (I assume some grades for this spring are yet to be decided?).

Also, I don't think $60 million are worth €92 million :wink:

Rosamunda
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Re: Lower Secondary grade average calculation HELP

Post by Rosamunda » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:56 pm

ajk wrote:
Also, I don't think $60 million are worth €92 million :wink:
:oops: I converted the wrong way! €39M What a bargain!

My husband is calling the OPO today.

I think part of the problem is that the definitions don't fit the Eurotrash kids who don't have either Finnish or Swedish as their äidenkieli because the "system" doesn't recognise English as an äidinkieli. Then what's the toisen kotimaisen kieli? Finnish foreign language or Swedish or is it English? But yes, the rest seems reasonable I suppose. Odd system though, given that the Finnish matriculation requires the kids to take 54 (?) courses in as many different subjects, so why restrict the selection criteria to the academics? (You might have guessed... my little treasure has 10s in technical, art and design, PE etc.... but miserable grades for Finnish and Swedish :roll: ) But I specifically remember mention of some kind of weighting whereby 8th-grade grades counted for more than 9th-grade grades in the final calculation, which seems fair as that would benefit kids who have made an effort to improve their grades, or who have maybe matured a bit slower than the others.

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Re: Lower Secondary grade average calculation HELP

Post by ajk » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:49 pm

Well, obviously the purpose of the average is for selecting pupils in case there are not enough places for everyone, and lukio is the academic choice - for various ammattikoulut they do stress the art and tech classes more (among other things, there is a long list of things that are seen as a plus in that hel.fi link).

Rosamunda
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Re: Lower Secondary grade average calculation HELP

Post by Rosamunda » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:05 pm

ajk wrote:Well, obviously the purpose of the average is for selecting pupils in case there are not enough places for everyone, and lukio is the academic choice - for various ammattikoulut they do stress the art and tech classes more (among other things, there is a long list of things that are seen as a plus in that hel.fi link).
I understand the average is used to "select" pupils for a limited number of places, but in that case there should be some standardisation of the grades between schools and between different parts of the country. It is "unfair" that a native English speaker gets an 8 a bilingual school in HEL whereas a native Finn gets a 9 in Kuopio just because he sat through the course and got 9+/10 for the grammar.

Well, as far as I know (and I have been looking, believe me) there are no ammattikoulu in HEV offering high school courses for 16-18 yr olds in English. I'm pretty sure he will go into something "vocational" eventually but I think he needs to keep his options open for now and IB/AICE + Fin Matric seems the best solution.

But, my son is actually quite academic. Although he is dyslexic he is a keen reader and gets good grades in science subjects and maths (a 10 in physics + chemistry, all 8s and 9s in maths and 9s in English MT, 8s in French etc), it is the Finnish and Swedish which is hitting his average hard. Ironically if he gets into the IB programme then he will not need to study Finnish or Swedish, but it is precisely the IB lukios that are most demanding in the academic average :roll:

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Re: Lower Secondary grade average calculation HELP

Post by ajk » Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:24 pm

Yeah, I was just generally commenting your "so why restrict the selection criteria to the academics?", for lukios I think this is quite natural. Some specialized lukios use other criteria (in addition), like entrance exams or art/tech grades, as well, as I'm sure you know.

There is also the tenth grade option, which is sort of meant for improving your grades before entering secondary education. Of course if it is likely that the critical grades won't easily rise, it may just be a waste of time.

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Re: Lower Secondary grade average calculation HELP

Post by Hank W. » Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:58 pm

What I looked in the opinto-opas there was a few "plan B" of sorts
http://www.omnia.fi (nursing)
http://www.vantaa.fi/varia (catering)
http://www.slk.fi/english/qba (business)
http://www.helpa.edu.hel.fi (hairdressing, chef)
etc... nothing really "technical" though. But SLK papers enable to apply for poly (or uni).
Cheers, Hank W.
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Rosamunda
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Re: Lower Secondary grade average calculation HELP

Post by Rosamunda » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:32 pm

ajk wrote:Yeah, I was just generally commenting your "so why restrict the selection criteria to the academics?", for lukios I think this is quite natural. Some specialized lukios use other criteria (in addition), like entrance exams or art/tech grades, as well, as I'm sure you know.

There is also the tenth grade option, which is sort of meant for improving your grades before entering secondary education. Of course if it is likely that the critical grades won't easily rise, it may just be a waste of time.
You're right. We're also considering Eira aikuislukio which has a good reputation for putting immigrants through the Finnish matric. They have really intensive FFL and enter A L L lukio students for the matric exam.

SO spoke to OPO today and we are reassured. Apparently the 7s he got for Swedish will be ditched which will increase his average. I think it will all work out fine in the long run. We just have to go with the flow and stick with the system for the time being.

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Re: Lower Secondary grade average calculation HELP

Post by milou » Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:46 pm

I used to attend one of the top ranked senior high schools in Finland. When comparing exams, grades with my friends from other schools we noticed that they got their grades a lot easier. But it would have been silly if our teachers had given us all only 9's or 10's.

But one day came time for the matriculation exams...

It was quite common that students in my school who had grade average of 6-7 in languages (german, swedish etc.) got mostly M's, E's and even L's at their matriculation exams. For many students the matriculation exam points went up quite at the YO-lautakunta. For example my reaali points went up 6 points at the YO-lautakunta and same happened to many fellow students.

*m*


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