finland needs workers

[Megstertex]

This article is ridiculous on so many levels.

First of all, yes, I think most can agree there needs to be a consistent standard level for foreign workers, I don't think anyone is suggesting just truckloading uneducated unskilled people into the bird's nest, but secondly, Finland has joined the EU. That means, that at the legislative and cultural level, the people in this country are going to have to get used to the idea that there is free movement of people allowed in the EU, and that Finland is going to have to start recognizing qualifications and degrees from France, from Germany, from the UK, on a broader spectrum (i.e. you studied Finance, but that has nothing to do with being an ACCOUNTANT!, so we'll pay you half of what we pay the other accountants and you get less holidays paid because you are unqualified) , and, if they want skilled foreigners, gasp, even places from outside of the EU.

Finland doesn't want foreign workers. They can barely admit that they need the help. I work for a small company, and have three jobs at the moment. I wouldn't say I am living up to my potential, I am paying my dues and surviving, and am highly and well educated, and I would say, have something most of my colleagues do not, a can do, or make it happen attitude, rather than avoid, delay, ignore and it will go away attitude to problems. Maybe they got tired of all the slammed doors in their faces a long time ago, the narrow little pigeonhole one way of doing everything, and accept things the way they are and don't try anymore, I don't know. The laziest people at my work, are the Finns with a permanent contract, that are either alcoholics, or constantly on sairasloma or studying a hobby degree part time. It's the foreign workers, that have to jump through hoops to prove their right to exist, who pay more taxes as a "flight risk", who have less rights and more to prove to earn their stay that pick up the slack of some of the spoiled welfare state people that take their benefits for granted and know they won't be fired, and know that I'm working hard enough to pay for their alcoholism paid leaves--again, this is just what I've seen in my very small experience in 3 different small companies here.

But the close-mindedness and prejudices, even subconscious, hidden ones, are so rampant, that even if Finland were to somehow magically convince 100K people to come, they would soon leave. Tiwaz, and others, it is not always the foreigners with the gilded arses, sometimes it can be at the university, government, and private sector levels, and it seems to come from the top down. I see the need to protect the Finnish language and way of life, and agree that it should be a priority to protect the welfare system, but at the same time, the immigrant situation is not made better by having virtually no possibilities for real integration. Speaking about motivation, even foreigners who speak fluent Finnish, are not as trusted, not given the same opportunities, or the same social possibilities as the small, closed, homegrown circles. If they are coming regardless, and there is nothing to do to change it, there are 2 possibilities, 1) assimilate, educate, and integrate them (OH HORROR, we don't want to be like Sweden, overrun by immigrants) or 2)Shut them out in the cold with virtually minimum possibilities for an equal quality of life, and wait until more come, and then the riots and crime waves start.

[shrecher]

Well, scercher, I'm going to pull the USSR card here. "Big country, big tolerances" where you could get by with the quantity of people, or quantity of production, and quality is then depending if its monday or the beginning of the month or end of the month when you have to get the quota filled.

Finland is a "small country with small tolerances" so here the quality of people has been valued over quantity of people. "One Finn equals 10 russians, problem is when number 11 comes"

What you say would be valid 25 years ago, in time when Finland was closed country, but not now. Nowadays, Finland is part of EU (size and diversification is close to USSR). One of purpose of EU is free labor exchange. This goal is executing successfully. More foreigns people coming to work here, of course, they don't speak Finnish. Look around while you are Helsinki: probably every 10-th is non Finn. Whenever you agree with it or not, the whole world is globalizing, we are becoming part of the global infrastructure. People, work abroad, manufacture moves to other countries, other people come hre. Again, exchange of people, again more and more them here. I really can see the difference between Finland 10 years ago and now: amount of foreigns is steadily growing.

[Hank W.]

There is "free" movement to come, nobody says we have to hire them.

[Tiwaz]

Megs, this is not point about who is lazy and who is not.
In case you have not noticed, french and other EU papers are already accepted.

But that does not change few facts which apparently are difficult for some to grasp...

1) This is Finland.
2) Finland has TWO official languages. Finnish and swedish.
3) People expect to receive service in official languages. Failure to comply easily leads to failure to get clients or flood of complaints.
4) This is not UK, Australia, Canada or whatnot. English is NOT natural replacement for finnish/swedish skills.

Now, considering these few minor details. What would you, Megs, do as manager if you had one job available where you need to deal with finns all the time, and applicant can barely say "Minu nimi Bob"? Specially if you have job where customer contact is important...


Immigrants, welcome. Specially skilled. But understand this, finns are not going to switch their native and preferred language in their native country to english just to give you easier time to get job.

If you want to make yourself valid for worklife, learn finnish or pray that you are lucky.

If you are not lucky and you do not learn finnish... Sorry, your problem.

[sinikettu]

There is "free" movement to come, nobody says we have to hire them.

This is what it is all about.

The Government says we need 100,000 workers to fill vacancies in certain sectors.

YLE/the Media suggest that these place can be filled by the immigrants who are always complaining how difficult it is to get jobs here.

The Employers say..They can come but unless they speak Finnish no used to me I will not hire them.

I as an employer will not hire anyone who is going to be an interface with my client if they only have 1000 words in Finnish.

It would mean putting a notice to all customers.. "please only use the following list of words when in discussion with my staff, and do not use any of the 15 case endings and only use verbs in the infinative!"
Moi moi customers.

[rinso]

Speaking about motivation, even foreigners who speak fluent Finnish, are not as trusted, not given the same opportunities, or the same social possibilities as the small, closed, homegrown circles.

A related aspect is the "networking". If you can get a Fin to vouch you're more than halfway there, even if your Finnish skills are below par.

[sammy]

Finland is integrating and foreign people come here, you can't enforce them to learn the language. That's life, you can't escape from it.

Listen, dude - I do not need to "escape" anything. I'm all pro-immigration you know! But the sooner you understand that learning Finnish (or Swedish, depends a bit on the area) is more or less the ONLY key to real integration here, the better. I wholeheartedly agree with sinikala et al in that much more should be done in the way of Finnish language teaching to immigrants.

[sinikala]

There is "free" movement to come, nobody says we have to hire them.

No, but perhaps if you behave yourself, keep you nose clean etc, we might hire you.

Finland is integrating and foreign people come here, you can't enforce them to learn the language. That's life, you can't escape from it.

Listen, dude - I do not need to "escape" anything. I'm all pro-immigration you know! But the sooner you understand that learning Finnish (or Swedish, depends a bit on the area) is more or less the ONLY key to real integration here, the better. I wholeheartedly agree with sinikala et al in that much more should be done in the way of Finnish language teaching to immigrants.

I think others have been louder than I in saying that language teaching should be improved. TBH in Helsinki the language courses were great, no problems. However, not all of us work anywhere near Helsinki. Especially crazy is that out here in Pori there are 3 or 4 places offering basic Finnish courses, but that's it.

And once again, not everyone is interested in being assimilated into the Borg collective. Whilst one would hope that most immigrants would want to learn some Finnish, as Screech wrote, you can't force people to learn the language. And those here for a fixed period, or who are not intending to stay may see it as a waste of effort, or not be prepared to put in the effort to do so.

[raamv]

You mean discriminating against finns would be solution? I can see how it would be great success.
"Sorry Pekka, you are better than Bob here, but hiring less competent Bob raises us above foreigner margin so we get tax benefits"
Yup. That would go down really well.
How about alternative solution, make residence permit or KELA support dependant on immigrants progress in integration? No progress, your ass is on the plane back home.
It is about as realistic as expecting finns to swallow being discriminated in favour of immigrants.
And schrecher... I think you have this small mistake in your understanding where you are. Welcome to Finland. We over here speak finnish as native language. Call us barbarians but we expect guy who gives us service (doctor, salesperson or whatever) to actually speak to us in that language. Because it is, you know, local language.
Trying to turn Finland into little Britain will not work.
Oh yes, and doctor who can't speak finnish and/or swedish is going to be big problem. Have you heard of this thing "Kielilaki"... As I read it, I have right to receive service in finnish. So it is not problem of mother, she is within her rights to demand treatment in finnish. Problem is with doctor and his employer.

Before you go trumpeting that you are being discriminated against, read what I wrote...They were suggestions and alternatives on How to integrate Foreigners..Notwithstanding any suggestions on Hiring Finns against foreigners..or about competences.
I guess that the suggestion about the KELA support is probably a good one!! and thats what our Southern Neighbors do!!
No Integration..No Dole !!
What I was implying was to make the integration easier for the different entities ( Univs Companies etc) and the foreigner. As long as there is a value proposition for each of them, it can be done!

[Tiwaz]

Listen, dude - I do not need to "escape" anything. I'm all pro-immigration you know! But the sooner you understand that learning Finnish (or Swedish, depends a bit on the area) is more or less the ONLY key to real integration here, the better. I wholeheartedly agree with sinikala et al in that much more should be done in the way of Finnish language teaching to immigrants.

I think others have been louder than I in saying that language teaching should be improved. TBH in Helsinki the language courses were great, no problems. However, not all of us work anywhere near Helsinki. Especially crazy is that out here in Pori there are 3 or 4 places offering basic Finnish courses, but that's it.

And once again, not everyone is interested in being assimilated into the Borg collective. Whilst one would hope that most immigrants would want to learn some Finnish, as Screech wrote, you can't force people to learn the language. And those here for a fixed period, or who are not intending to stay may see it as a waste of effort, or not be prepared to put in the effort to do so.[/quote]


As said, perhaps if those who find education to be bad should put more effort into learning. If people showed more interest in learning, more opportunities would be presented. Kansalaisopisto might represent good option, go there with enough eager students and ask if they can arrange courses.


And if you are not interested in being integrated into collective, don't whine when collective doesn't give a flying **** if your life is miserable and you have no job.

Same for fixed period of people. We do not force you to learn language, but if you don't... Don't bitch and moan that we do not give you a job either.

Your arses are not gilt, you coming here does not mean you are entitled to work without finnish. If you find job without finnish, count your blessings. If you can't...

Too bad. Not OUR problem. Borg collective reserves right to employ only those it wants.

[sammy]

And once again, not everyone is interested in being assimilated into the Borg collective. Whilst one would hope that most immigrants would want to learn some Finnish, as Screech wrote, you can't force people to learn the language. And those here for a fixed period, or who are not intending to stay may see it as a waste of effort, or not be prepared to put in the effort to do so.

Quite so, I was rather thinking of those who do wish to stay for longer periods of time or permanently, sorry if I was a bit vague there. Fixed-term employees and so on are a different thing. And of course language learning should not be compulsory - the thing is, however, that it can make your life so much easier if you learn the local language, not only in terms of getting a job. You do get "closer" to the local community -and local culture- in many ways. It makes a lot of SENSE, that's all I'm saying

[Tiwaz]

Before you go trumpeting that you are being discriminated against, read what I wrote...They were suggestions and alternatives on How to integrate Foreigners..Notwithstanding any suggestions on Hiring Finns against foreigners..or about competences.
I guess that the suggestion about the KELA support is probably a good one!! and thats what our Southern Neighbors do!!
No Integration..No Dole !!
What I was implying was to make the integration easier for the different entities ( Univs Companies etc) and the foreigner. As long as there is a value proposition for each of them, it can be done!

Problem is that your suggestion would lead to exactly kind of situation which would cause more tensions. I recall there being law that forbids preferential treatment in hiring.

Why it would matter? Because when you give monetary benefits for hiring X% immigrants, you effectively cause preferential treatment. It would be in company interests to hire X% of immigrants to get the tax benefits. This on the other hand leads to preferential treatment in hiring process. Hiring less competent Bob over Pekka becomes rather inviting option when Bob would take you over that magical border and save your company few hundred k in taxes.

Making immigrants more viable for work is a good cause, but one has to consider tools very hard. Anything that could be perceived as discrimination of native population would actually bite you in the ass. Already there are people complaining about foreigners coming to "steal jobs"... Imagine how much worse it would get if your suggested tax benefit system would be implemented.

You did not suggest such situation, but that is where it would lead.

[rinso]

Making immigrants more viable for work is a good cause, but one has to consider tools very hard. Anything that could be perceived as discrimination of native population would actually bite you in the ass.

Seen that in other countries with gender/race/religion/... preferences.
It's a road that leads to disaster. Unless his/her social skills are really good and can win over the harts of his/her co-workers, (s)he will become isolated. Which will in turn lead to dis functional work.

[Hank W.]

Speaking about motivation, even foreigners who speak fluent Finnish, are not as trusted, not given the same opportunities, or the same social possibilities as the small, closed, homegrown circles.

And this would be somehow "unique to Finland"? Any given country has the "old boys" networks. Some more pronounced, some less. Go to Sweden and try get a job neot being Swedish. Take a look at Canada for example if you want to talk about "protectionism" in paperwork and degree recognition or try get to study into a French university without a French education.... Of course this "kicking home" exists, but it is one of the "facts of life" and compared on a global scale, it isn't anything overwhelming in Finland.

[Megstertex]

Megs, this is not point about who is lazy and who is not.
In case you have not noticed, french and other EU papers are already accepted.

But that does not change few facts which apparently are difficult for some to grasp...

1) This is Finland.
2) Finland has TWO official languages. Finnish and swedish.
3) People expect to receive service in official languages. Failure to comply easily leads to failure to get clients or flood of complaints.
4) This is not UK, Australia, Canada or whatnot. English is NOT natural replacement for finnish/swedish skills.

Now, considering these few minor details. What would you, Megs, do as manager if you had one job available where you need to deal with finns all the time, and applicant can barely say "Minu nimi Bob"? Specially if you have job where customer contact is important...


Immigrants, welcome. Specially skilled. But understand this, finns are not going to switch their native and preferred language in their native country to english just to give you easier time to get job.

If you want to make yourself valid for worklife, learn finnish or pray that you are lucky.

If you are not lucky and you do not learn finnish... Sorry, your problem.

Wow, it seems you missed my point entirely. Point is not who is lazy or who goes to Kela. Point is, of course people need to learn the language, but if Finland needs workers, Finland needs to provide language and assimilation programs for this influx of people. What they have now does not cut it, it isn't sufficient, and it is of poor quality. Of course I don't expect people to provide service in broken English and part Finnish. Services sector needs workers, but the workers have to have a reason to come, and to stay, and if they don't have a proven way to assimilate and get language learning support, they will go elsewhere, and there will be plenty of unfilled vacancies.

What is especially infuriating is ads in foreign trade and economy magazines, where Finland places ads telling that this is some kind of haven where all companies are hiring foreign workers, and something about "Finns speak such good English it will be an easy transition". They don't really list requirements, and they don't bother to pull from the pool of currently docile immigrants they already have here. That's like a cargo plane at an airstrip, unloading the cargo onto the tarmac, and rather than moving it somewhere, more planes bringing more cargo that is simply piling up on the runway. NOT very efficient.

And, in my experience, FRENCH and OTHER EU papers are NOT accepted, when I go down the list of my German and French friends, whose university degrees and experience are snubbed as not being up to the "Finnish standard," and they (Opetus Hallitus, sorry if I misspelled) invite you to take some supplemental courses at lovely Helsinki University. I am sure some are accepted, but you have to understand that there are many that are not, and this is at the government level that this pervasive arrogance exists, and actually, the EU has verbally popped Finland on the wrist a few times for this kind of institutional discrimination, and other EU contradictions (I believe cars and tax on cars issues) but change is slow.