Do stores start to be open on Sundays now?

[otyikondo]

Let's throw this into the mix (the boldface is mine):

8.5.2007
ERIKOISKAUPPA:
KAUPAN AUKIOLOAIKOJA EI TULE LAAJENTAA
Kaupan yritysten selkeä enemmistö vastustaa kaupan aukioloaikojen laajentamista. Kauppa- ja teollisuusministeri Mauri Pekkarisen julkisuuteen tuoma ehdotus sunnuntaiaukiolon laajentamisesta syys–lokakuulle ei ole tarpeellista, vaan nykyiset aukiolomahdollisuudet riittävät. Aukiololainsäädännön selkeyttäminen nykyisestä on sen sijaan perusteltua.

Laajat aukioloajat kannattamattomia
Erikoiskaupan kielteisen aukioloaikanäkemykseen vaikuttaa erityisesti sunnuntaiaukiolon kannattamattomuus. Laajentuneet aukiolomahdollisuudet eivät
ole kasvattaneet kaupan kokonaismyyntiä, vaan kuluttajien sunnuntaisin tekemät ostokset ovat olleet pois muiden päivien myynnistä. Aukioloaikojen laajentamista vastustavatkin kaikenkokoiset erikoisliikkeet.
Kilpailutilanne edellyttää usein erikoiskaupoilta aukioloa, mikä heikentää yritysten kannattavuutta erityisesti sunnuntaityön korkeiden työvoimakustannusten vuoksi. Kustannusten kasvu rasittaa varsinkin henkilökohtaiselle palvelulle perustuvaa erikoiskauppaa, jossa työvoimakustannusten osuus suhteessa myyntiin on merkittävästi suurempi kuin päivittäistavarakaupassa.

Kauppakeskuksissa ei aukiolovapautta
Aukioloaikojen laajentaminen aiheuttaisi ongelmia erityisesti niille kauppa-keskuksissa sijaitseville erikoiskaupoille, jotka ovat sidottuja kauppakeskusten määräämiin maksimiaukioloaikoihin. Tämä merkitsee erikoiskaupoille usein tappiollista myyntiä myöhäisinä iltatunteina arkisin ja sunnuntaisin. Se myös vähentää erikoiskauppojen mahdollisuuksia hakeutua kauppakeskuksiin ja toimia niissä kannattavasti, mikä vääristää kaupan kilpailutilannetta. Kauppakeskusten lukumäärän jatkuvasti lisääntyessä on pakkoaukiolosta tulossa erikoiskaupalle kasvava ongelma.

* * *

Vähittäiskaupan yrityksistä 80 % on erikoiskauppoja (noin 17.600) ja toimipaikoista 74 % (noin 21.400). Erikoiskauppojen yhteenlaskettu myynti (ilman alv) oli 12.269 milj.euroa vuonna 2006, mikä on 45 % koko vähittäiskaupan myynnistä. Erikoiskauppa on myös merkittävä työllistäjä kaupan alalla ja sen osuus koko vähittäiskaupan henkilöstöstä on 54 % (noin 60.000 henkilöä).

Basically, what this is saying is that within the specialty retail trade (white goods, clothing, books, etc, etc, anything but the current consumer goods trade), shopping hours are a zero-sum game, and that sales will not materially increase just because you are open 24/7. And DO not. It simply adds to the length of the "slow periods" at other times. And yet such stores feel obliged to open on Sundays - because otherwise they'd be out of synch with the malls where they are increasingly located (because malls are the way of the world) - even if it places an additional burden on the retailers to do so. The local Prisma or K-Market has fewer hands-on-deck relative to sales volume (all those people pushing trolleys and serving themselves), and so suffers less from the additional burden of Sunday staff costs.

Now we could argue that who gives a toss that these businesses are hurting, when we are being indulged with a chance to shop at all hours, but this is a bit short-sighted, since in order to be hurting less, they will hit us up for higher prices, which they can do perfectly easily in a small and rather incestuous market such as Finland, where price-fixing is by no means unheardof. The key fact of the specialist retailers' gripe is that they do NOT see deregulated Sunday opening as a means of increasing sales - merely one of spreading sales out over seven days instead of six.

Were they a factory producing widgets, I hardly imagine there would be loud clamouring for them to produce their x number of widgets seven days a week instead of five or six.

Equally, those who resent having to shop when there are long lines at the check-out are probably less strident in their calls for being allowed to go to the office on Sundays because the traffic jams on Länsiväylä will be shorter on Sunday mornings and evenings. But perhaps they, too, should be switching over to a regimen where they have one or other weekday off each week (and shuffle papers at their desk on Sundays). Then they could shop to their heart's content in the relative peace and quiet of a Wednesday morning. And let's not stop there. Schools, kindergartens, government offices... all on a rolling schedule of certain weekdays off - you'd just need to check out which days it isn't worth going along to pick up your KELA money because the place will be closed so the staff can shop.

[sammy]

Kilpailutilanne edellyttää usein erikoiskaupoilta aukioloa, mikä heikentää yritysten kannattavuutta erityisesti sunnuntaityön korkeiden työvoimakustannusten vuoksi.

A few recent observations related to this:

Exhibit A: It's tempting to think that Sunday opening would create new jobs, ie that more people would be employed to cover the added hours. In real life, however it seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) shops / retailers etc are not going to do so. Especially not the speciality shops, but perhaps also including the bigger supermarkets and their ilk.

At an unnamed mall, the 400+ sqm supermarket (that's now open on Sundays) usually does not have significantly shorter queues on the Sabbath day - even if the normal "après-work" throng isn't exactly blocking the aisles (!), there are far less cashiers working than on weekdays, so it's not actually unusual for customers to end up queuing as long as on any other day.

Also, some grocery stuff may not be available, unless there are "leftovers" from the weekdays. I'm only guessing but perhaps this is because the deliveries do not run on weekends (?).

Item #2. Yesterday, on a Sunday that is, at the same mall, a middle-aged male person (any passing resemblance to myself is purely factual) noticed that a hairdresser/barber shop was open and thought as follows: about time to get my hair cut, why not do it now since I happened to pass this way. What happened? Granted, the establishment was open, but there was only one person behind the counter (and note: no other customers than our protagonist with his slightly Beatle-esque hair) who happily chirped "oh, we're open today yes, but unfortunately there's no possibility to get a haircut - you see I'm the only one present today and I'm only selling these hair lotions. Would Sir like to buy some?"

For the sake of 'image', it seemed to me, this establishment also needed to "keep the doors open" while obviously they did not deem it financially profitable to call in the actual workers.

Needless to say, the hero of our story spent a sleepless night, deeply worrying about his civic rights, and his hair, in somewhat equal measure (the extent of the measure being left to the imagination of the reader)

[Rosamunda]

And just for the record. I was in Tapiola keskus yesterday and the WHOLE PLACE was totally EMPTY. Now if the car parking was free on Sundays I might be tempted to shop, simply because there are no queues. But it isn't, so why bother?

But yes, for many shops Sunday is the busiest day: florists, gas stations, mini-markets, garden centres, maybe R-Kioskis too because they sell beer and cigarettes and magazines and the forgotten litre of milk when all else is closed.

By the way... I would quite like summer opening times to extend to LIBRARIES, after all, most of us have much more free time to read in summer than during the rest of the year. And how about PUBLIC SWIMMING POOLS.... never could figure why they shut down as soon as the blue/green algae stuff invades the bays, lakes and beaches. Of course, that would mean getting civil servants and other municipal workers to work in July and August....

[sinikala]

Personally, I find it quite handy to be able to do some shopping on a Sunday, I don't think it is the place of the government to decide when shops can or cannot be open, that should be down to the businesses.

If it makes sense for the company to be open on a Sunday, i.e. if they can turn a profit, if they have sufficient workers willing to do a Sunday, and can attract sufficient numbers of customers, is it really the government's place to stop them?

There have been several mentions in this thread about companies being obliged to stay open or providing skeleton / nominal cover on Sundays... to provide some balance, IIRC our local shopping centre http://www.isokarhu.fi/ was closed on Sundays last summer, I can't remember the exact reason, but it was something to do with it not being cost effective (not enough trade?) to bother keeping the place open. Seems this year they will be open on Sundays.

Cue little Frank to tell us how this is all actually down to Stalin and the CIA.

[Tiwaz]

Actually, it does not work that nicely. Like many theories of ebil government trashing what should be liberty it is only so if not looked more carefully.

Let us presume stores could be open as they please...

Some of trade is moved from weekdays to sunday. Those who are open on sunday get this business, while those who are not open on sunday will lose some of their business. (as mentioned, it is zero sum game, gain of some during sunday means loss during week for all)

Thus, generally every store has to stay open to avoid giving advantage to competition. So, we have every store open on sundays, racking up expenses without making increased income. This in turn is moved down the ladder to clients, because stores do not stay open by making loss.

Net effect? Stuff costs more to compensate stores staying open on sundays. Which all (or almost) do since they do not lose in competition.

[otyikondo]

I agree with Tiwaz. If there were a material gain to be had in terms of coaxing the available consumer spending to move from wallets to cash registers, we'd all be wearing headphones against the thunderous demands from the retail trade for liberalisation. And they would ride roughshod over the evil government, who would be thinking not only of the voters with their Sunday trolley excursions but also of the nice little windfall in corporate tax revenues from the trade sector.

[jamie_designer]

I'm getting really tired of going back and forth with this debate. I think whats happening is "some" people have confused their personal preferences for having the stores open or closed on sundays all year round with being an actual valid reason why they should stay open or closed. When you say I wish, I think, or I would like stores to stay closed on Sunday, thats the same thing as saying "I like blue". If someone then replies "I like green" there is no argument to be made.

So far I think the people pushing for stores hours to stay as is, haven't really said anything other then they like stores staying shut. They certainly have not given any good reason for why things should stay the way they are now. The strongest point I believe which has been made in their favour is that with big businesses open, small businesses like siwa may loose sunday business and eventually be put out of business by the bigger stores. I dismiss this quite easily, because I personally believe that its not the governments job to keep businesses open. Some of you might have another point of view on that, so its arguable.

I think Sinikala wrote a very good post which touched on a lot of the issues going on behind the post.

I don't think it is the place of the government to decide when shops can or cannot be open, that should be down to the businesses.

A few people here do think the government has a place telling shops when they can and can not do. For one reason or another they want governments to force business owners to bend to their wills, these people aren't happy unless they are making other people miserable.

If it makes sense for the company to be open on a Sunday, i.e. if they can turn a profit, if they have sufficient workers willing to do a Sunday, and can attract sufficient numbers of customers, is it really the government's place to stop them?

It doesn't matter how much sense it makes, it offends some people, some of the time that stores are open so they should just be closed, except at christmas and except during tourist heavy months and these rules should only apply to certain shops. The way it is now makes much better sense can't you see it.

There have been several mentions in this thread about companies being obliged to stay open or providing skeleton / nominal cover on Sundays... to provide some balance, IIRC our local shopping centre http://www.isokarhu.fi/ was closed on Sundays last summer, I can't remember the exact reason, but it was something to do with it not being cost effective (not enough trade?) to bother keeping the place open. Seems this year they will be open on Sundays.

Can you even imagine living in a world where people could look over the facts for themselves and make a decison based on how they feel afterwards.

[sinikala]

AFAIK there has not yet been year round Sunday trading in Finland, so that it is a zero sum game is speculation.

Personally I find it more useful that large shops are open until 21:00 than on Sundays. To use your argument, what's the point of staying open until 21:00? ... clearly a zero sum game, they might as well all close at 19:00.

I find it hard to believe that there would be no increase in overall sales in all circumstances, or am I the only one with disposable income here?

My Sunday shopping usually consists of small spontaneous buys, that I perhaps would not otherwise make. Grocery shopping, occasionally clothes & the odd CD or DVD. Yesterday we bought a plant pot and some potting compost... fantastic eh? I doubt we spend a huge amount, but there seemed to be a stready trickle of folk around, at least as many as you see at 20:00 on a weekday.

It may be that the extra expense of Sunday trading might not generate enough profit to justify opening, I think that would result in the business simply not opening as our local shopping centre chose not to last summer.

On the subject of retail trade demanding liberalisation, Otyi... as you have lived in Finland since the 1950's or whenever, perhaps you can tell us how things have changed, seems to me they are already some way down the road to liberalisation?

As an aside, IIRC in Denmark the shops are open on the first Sunday of the month, so presumably this makes some kind of economic sense to their businesses.

This is not an open and shut case. Groans to self.

[Tiwaz]

Jamie, if you have not read anything about reasons not to open sundays you clearly have not been reading.

Stores themselves, as mentioned in article, have stated that sales have not increased in total. Instead, some sales from weekdays have moved to sunday.

Ergo, there is no increased sales income for shops.

Then, if stores can be open on sunday they all have to be (or almost). Why? Because else lost trade from weekdays would be going to cash registry of some other shop. So every store is open to maintain same amount of sales they would.

Result? There is no increased income from being open on sunday but there is increased expenses. As staff has to be paid to work. This means stores are actually making LESS money from sunday openings.

Stores do not live on making less money, they live on making more money. How do they solve this problem? They raise prices!

What reasons stores would have to lie about this? If they are making more money from periods when they are open on sundays, why would they lie about it?

But even stores themselves admit that is not so. They are open on sundays when permitted to, just to avoid giving clients to competitors.

[sammy]

I dismiss this quite easily, because I personally believe that its not the governments job to keep businesses open. Some of you might have another point of view on that, so its arguable.

Just as an argumentative issue, precisely how would you say "I like X" and "I personally believe that X" differ from each other?

That is, isn't the above quotation just another example of "I like green" vs "I like blue"? How about those who personally believe that the government does (and/or should) have its say in how business is made in country X? Are they wrong, if they do not personally believe as you do? If so, where's the Archimedes' point to prove they are?

I'm interested in hearing your answer, not because I'd be passionately fixated on Sunday opening hours, but since the issue is a philosophical one. How does "I feel X is right" essentially differ from "I like X" (when taken in the sense "I feel X is pleasurable")?

(and no, I don't necessarily have an answer to this question myself )

[otyikondo]

AFAIK there has not yet been year round Sunday trading in Finland, so that it is a zero sum game is speculation.

Well, not according to the specialty retailers, apparently. Besides, several people have pointed to the fact that the present regime cherry-picks the most attractive Sundays in the calendar that would probably bring the punters out better than a wet day in October, so I'm in some doubt as to whether "all-year figures" would sweeten this pill very much for the retailers.

Personally I find it more useful that large shops are open until 21:00 than on Sundays. To use your argument, what's the point of staying open until 21:00? ... clearly a zero sum game, they might as well all close at 19:00.

I quite agree on the 21:00. Again, it's not MY argument, if you were perchance looking in my direction. It's the empirical finding of the guys behind the counter in Musta Pörssi, or their bosses. As for the last two hours of weekday shopping, it's a fair comment, though quite a few white-collar people do work later and later, and at least in urban malls, you've got a captive audience as people come out of work - rather than them having to get off their ass and drive in on a Saturday or Sunday. So some folks do a bit of shopping and have a beer and go to the flicks before going home. I guess. But it comes down to the numbers - they would stay open until 3 a.m if there was a buck to be made.

I find it hard to believe that there would be no increase in overall sales in all circumstances, or am I the only one with disposable income here?

My Sunday shopping usually consists of small spontaneous buys, that I perhaps would not otherwise make. Grocery shopping, occasionally clothes & the odd CD or DVD. Yesterday we bought a plant pot and some potting compost... fantastic eh? I doubt we spend a huge amount, but there seemed to be a stready trickle of folk around, at least as many as you see at 20:00 on a weekday.

Apparently it's not enough of a trickle to do anything more than get your pants wet. I'd guess the white goods and other specialty people make a fair bit from Saturday sales (goods often require hubby and wife turning up together), and that they have found that the overall Sat/Sun numbers don't add up to a hell of a lot more than Saturday alone.

It may be that the extra expense of Sunday trading might not generate enough profit to justify opening, I think that would result in the business simply not opening as our local shopping centre chose not to last summer.

Well, if the entire mall shuts down that's one thing, but "breaking ranks" and keeping your door closed while others struggle on makes it easier for the others to get somewhere close to making a bob or two, and also improves those other shops' customer loyalty, which may be a kind of "loss-leader" effect that influences things for the better down the road. Perhaps. In any event, that is how that article was arguing it - "we're pretty much forced to play the game, like it or not". Except it's not exactly the evil government who are doing it, but their rivals.

On the subject of retail trade demanding liberalisation, Otyi... as you have lived in Finland since the 1950's or whenever, perhaps you can tell us how things have changed, seems to me they are already some way down the road to liberalisation?

Quite a LONG way down it... used to be that after 2 on Saturdays you were sh*t out of luck unless you braved the Tunnel under the Station. And now you can get a bottle of Old Priapic's Winter Legover in Alko at 8pm without breaking the windows. That was never on. Oh, and they've put asphalt on some of the roads since I came, and you don't see quite so many horse-drawn cabs or ladies with bustles and parasols. But they haven't done anything much about Paavo Väyrynen, despite huge public demands to have him deregulated and simultaneously strangulated.

As an aside, IIRC in Denmark the shops are open on the first Sunday of the month, so presumably this makes some kind of economic sense to their businesses.

Total hunch, but could it have something to with people getting paid at the end of the month? Can't see any other logic for that one day of four.

This is not an open and shut case. Groans to self.

We do not wish to know that. Kindly leave the stage.

[jamie_designer]

Jamie, if you have not read anything about reasons not to open sundays you clearly have not been reading.

Trust me, I have been reading, against my better judgement too.

Stores themselves, as mentioned in article, have stated that sales have not increased in total. Instead, some sales from weekdays have moved to sunday.

This is not a reason why stores should be forced closed on sunday all year round

Then, if stores can be open on sunday they all have to be (or almost). Why? Because else lost trade from weekdays would be going to cash registry of some other shop. So every store is open to maintain same amount of sales they would.

Tiwaz just to be clear I'm advocating a system of personal choice or volenteerism, forcing all stores to stay open is just as bad as forcing all stores to stay closed. With that out of the way your first sentence is simply not true. No store would be forced to close or open when they did not want to. I do however understand what your saying... you mean to say that if a store owner wants to close his shop while his competition wants to stay open the man who wants to shut down will loose some business.

That is not a reason why stores should be forced closed on sunday all year round.

Result? There is no increased income from being open on sunday but there is increased expenses. As staff has to be paid to work. This means stores are actually making LESS money from sunday openings.

Again that is not a reason why stores should be forced closed on sunday all year round. It may be a reason for some stores to stay shut on sundays by choice but I don't see what that has to do with forcing stores who want to stay open to shut down on Sundays.

Stores do not live on making less money, they live on making more money. How do they solve this problem? They raise prices!

Yeah Tiwaz its stores staying open an extra day that drives up prices, it has nothing to do with the government borrowing and printing money which devalues the currency. It has nothing to do with crazy 22% sales taxes.

[Hank W.]

masochist: Hit me, hit me!
sadist: I won't, I won't!

[otyikondo]

...government borrowing and printing money which devalues the currency...

Where did THAT come from? Which government would that be? And which currency? Care to tell us just how indebted the state is hereabouts? And what the borrowing requirements have been over the past decade?

[sammy]

masochist: Hit me, hit me!
sadist: I won't, I won't!

bassist: Wot?

/ get me 4-string