Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

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elisouli
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Re: Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

Post by elisouli » Mon May 12, 2008 11:22 pm

Yeah, Rob, I've been going through some old threads and I've noticed that enk knows quite a lot about this stuff. Where is she now?

I found something interesting... Here's a text extract in Karelian (Viena) (http://www.kotus.fi/index.phtml?s=185):

Vanhat ihmiset sanottih, jotta joučen on ihmisestä tullun. Jouččenet aina ollah parittain. Kun yksi ammuttanneh, ni toini pitälti itköy toistah. Vain joučen oli pyhä lintu. Sitä ei nikonsa ruohittu ampuo, siitä tulou riähkä. Jouččenet tullah meilä kevyällä ta syksyllä tuas lähetäh jälelläh suvipuoleh. Hyö lennetäh suurissa parviloissa. Silloin kun hyö lähettih, ni se oli merkki, jotta talvi on lässä. (Pekka Zaikov: Luemma vienankarjalaksi. Petroskoi 1995.)

In Finnish (consider this as another translation exercise :) ):

Vanhat ihmiset sanoivat, että joutsen on syntynyt ihmisestä. Joutsenet ovat aina parittain. Jos yksi ammutaan, niin toinen itkee toista pitkään. Joutsenhan on pyhä lintu. Sitä ei koskaan uskallettu ampua, se on synti. Joutsenet tulevat meille keväällä ja syksyllä ne taas lähtevät takaisin etelään. Ne lentävät suurissa parvissa. Silloin kun ne lähtivät, niin se merkitsi, että talvi on lähellä.

I'd say that I can understand most of the Karelian text. It's mostly the verb forms that are different. There are also some lexical differences:

nikonsa - in Finnish koskaan
riähkä - synti
jälelläh - takaisin
suvipuoleh - etelään
lässä - lähellä

It's also quite interesting that where I come from (I'm from North Karelia), older people would say things like parviloissa, just like in this Viena-Karelian extract :) I think it sounds very cute and funny and it reminds of my Grandma. And another thing... instead of he I say hyö :D



Here's another extract, in Olonets Karelian (aunus, Livvi) - this I find more difficult to understand (http://www.kotus.fi/index.phtml?s=186):

Lapset puaksuh juoksendeltih raududoroguazemale. Kerran sie käveltüü lähtiettih järilleh kodih meččüdorogua müöte. Iloiltihes da kepasteltih uvvel puhtahal lumuol. A gu mi on äijü jälgie lumel! Ei tietä lapset, kenen ollah jället, a himoittas nähtä reboidu libo jänöidü. (Tatjana Boiko: Oma sana. Petroskoi 1993.)

In Finnish:
Lapset juoksentelivat usein rautatieasemalle. Kerran siellä käytyään he lähtivät takaisin kotiin metsätietä pitkin. He mekastivat ja tepastelivat uudella puhtaalla lumella. Mutta kuinka paljon olikaan lumella jälkiä! Lapset eivät tiedä, minkä (eläimen) jälkiä ne ovat, mutta he haluaisivat nähdä ketun tai jäniksen.



Re: Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

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Hank W.
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Re: Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

Post by Hank W. » Tue May 13, 2008 6:52 pm

elisouli wrote: - There are some phonological differences: Karelian has retained some sounds that Finnish doesn't have anymore
- Karelian has more Russian influence, while Finnish has had more Swedish influence
- different standards for writing
- There're also cultural differences due to the fact that for centuries, Finns were under the Swedish rule, while Karelians belonged to the Russian empire: most Finns are Lutheran, while Karelians are Orthodox Christians
How appropriately - theres also a genetic divide :shock:
Last edited by Hank W. on Tue May 13, 2008 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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elisouli
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Re: Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

Post by elisouli » Tue May 13, 2008 7:00 pm

Hank your link doesn't work.

3w4222 - My cat tried to step on the keyboard, that's what he wrote :lol:

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Re: Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

Post by Hank W. » Tue May 13, 2008 7:12 pm

Your cat ate my link ;)
Cheers, Hank W.
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Rob A.
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Re: Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

Post by Rob A. » Wed May 14, 2008 12:51 am

elisouli wrote: Here's another extract, in Olonets Karelian (aunus, Livvi) - this I find more difficult to understand (http://www.kotus.fi/index.phtml?s=186):

Lapset puaksuh juoksendeltih raududoroguazemale. Kerran sie käveltüü lähtiettih järilleh kodih meččüdorogua müöte. Iloiltihes da kepasteltih uvvel puhtahal lumuol. A gu mi on äijü jälgie lumel! Ei tietä lapset, kenen ollah jället, a himoittas nähtä reboidu libo jänöidü. (Tatjana Boiko: Oma sana. Petroskoi 1993.)

In Finnish:
Lapset juoksentelivat usein rautatieasemalle. Kerran siellä käytyään he lähtivät takaisin kotiin metsätietä pitkin. He mekastivat ja tepastelivat uudella puhtaalla lumella. Mutta kuinka paljon olikaan lumella jälkiä! Lapset eivät tiedä, minkä (eläimen) jälkiä ne ovat, mutta he haluaisivat nähdä ketun tai jäniksen.
Always interesting how one thing leads to another...looking at the Olonets text lead me to what is apparently the oldest written text in any Finnic language....written in the thirteenth century (1200s), in Cyrillic, in what is believed to be archaic Olonets Karelian.... an invocation to the gods ...what else would it be.... :) :) ...against lightning.... in modern Finnish, Jumalannuoli... :)

....Hmmm ...As I was typing this, it was starting to seem more and more familiar.... So I did a search and, well, here is the previous thread on "God's Arrow":


viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21300&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... st+written


Anyway I suppose there might be a few who would appreciate seeing this again...

I think the oldest text in, more or less, modern Finnish, is from around the time of Agricola...


As to the Livvi text ....well, Finnish itself is tough enough....but I can see that the two are related... :) Without a dictionary I can see from the Finnish that it is about children often running through a railway station and, I guess, these same kids going back to their homes along a forest road....also something about lots of snow... Besides the more obvious words I can see the relationships between raududoroguazemale/rautatieasemalle and meččüdorogua/metsätietä ....but that's with hindsight, of course... :) :)

elisouli
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Re: Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

Post by elisouli » Wed May 14, 2008 2:17 pm

I read the article about the genetic divide between east and west. Hmm basically it just said that people in Eastern Finland are more prone to heart diseases (and fatter as well, perhaps). So I guess I've got more persjalka genes than people on the western coast who are tall and slender :? :roll: :)

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Re: Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

Post by Hank W. » Wed May 14, 2008 2:24 pm

Page 51:

The Tribes of the Finnish Nation:

The Finns had separated into two tribes when they arrived here. Into
the Tavastians and Karelians. The former settling into the west, and
the latter to the eastern parts of our country. From these have later
on formed the Savonian, the Ostrobothnian, and the Kainu tribes.

A TAVASTIAN is built big and strong. His eyes are greyish-blue, his
hair blond. ]By nature he is less talkative and solemn than the
Karelian. In his work he is industrious and practical. He is an
epitome of a Finn. He is very inspired of farming.

A KARELIAN has a slender build and is taller. His eyes are darker and
his hair brown and often curly. By his nature the Karelian is peppy,
talkative and industrious. He however lacks the percistency of the
Tavastian in his work. This can be witnessed in that he is not as
interested in farming as the Tavastian. Instead the Karelian makes
business willingly. Karelians love song and dance.

The PROPERFINLANDIANs are a Tavastian tribe, which have been mixed
with the Swedish population. A Properfinlandian is taller than a
Tavastian. He is lively and speaks a short-cut dialect.

The OSTROBOTHNIANs are a peculiar tribe, who seem to have formed
as a mixture of the Tavastian, Savonian and Swedish tribes. The
Ostrobothnians are vigorous, brave, fiery and braggy. They are
steadfast in farmwork and skillful in handiwork.

The SAVONIAN tribe has probably formed as a mixture of the Tavastian
and Karelian tribes. The Savonian is by nature playful, his dialect is
peculiarly pronounced.

The SWEDISH belong to the Germanic family of nations as do the Danes
and Germans. They are tall, slender, narrow-featured and
straight-backed. By nature they are gay and additionally love
cleanliness. The Swedish living in our country are classified by their
abode to Åland, Nyland,Turku and Ostrobothnia Swedes.

LAPPS live in the counties of Enontekiö, Inari, Utsjoki and Sodankylä
as well as the Russian, Swedish and Norwegian Lapplands. By their
industry they are classified as Reindeer or Fisher Lapps. The Lapp is
short and scrawny, the face is wide, the cheekbones protruding, the
nose flat, their hair brown or black. The Reindeer Lapps live in
wooden huts or leather tents that they move from one place to another.
The Fisher Lapps live in wooden cabins.

Kaarlo Hänninen "Geography and Local Studies for Single Homeroom
Schools" printed by the 'Temperance Society Print' in Helsinki, 1929
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.

elisouli
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Re: Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

Post by elisouli » Wed May 14, 2008 2:44 pm

:lol:

About dialects... My boyfriend says that when I'm irritated or angry, I start speaking kirjakieli. Now what is that about? I didn't realize it until he told me :?

buldozr
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Re: Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

Post by buldozr » Thu May 15, 2008 12:16 am

Rob A. wrote:Besides the more obvious words I can see the relationships between raududoroguazemale/rautatieasemalle and meččüdorogua/metsätietä
Yes, dorogu is borrowed from Russian and replaces tie, meaning being the same.

Rob A.
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Re: Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

Post by Rob A. » Thu May 15, 2008 3:08 am

buldozr wrote:
Rob A. wrote:Besides the more obvious words I can see the relationships between raududoroguazemale/rautatieasemalle and meččüdorogua/metsätietä
Yes, dorogu is borrowed from Russian and replaces tie, meaning being the same.
Yes...the thought did cross my mind... :) though I hadn't bother to check it out... дорога... :) :)

And while I'm here ...I might have left the impression in my post above that modern Finnish for "lightning" is Jumalannuoli. Well, it is, of course, salama


But Jumalannuoli is an interesting expression... definitely "Old Testament" stuff...

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Re: Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

Post by Hank W. » Thu May 15, 2008 7:58 am

Rob A. wrote: But Jumalannuoli is an interesting expression... definitely "Old Testament" stuff...
Well, I'd use ukonvasama to get biblical... maybe then not because Ukko is the god of the sky (a bit of a Zeus and Thor), and vasama is archaic for an arrow. (Also heard ukonnuoli... now logically, if a witch shoots and invisible arrow at you, you get noidannuoli ;) ) Of course ukonvasama would be natural beacuse they happen on ukonilma (Ukko's weather) and you get lightning and thunder salama ja ukkonen (a small ukko... Ukko's fart? :lol: ) ... funny how one term stays with the language when another term vanishes. Now also, ukko in modern means "old man", ukki is "gramps" ... ukkeli maybe a grandfather-looking old man (comical effect). Now then what comes to elder people theres äijä, ämmä and akka all of which in modern language are slightly derogatory, oh shouldn't forget muija, but like mutsi thats probably a Swedish loan. Anyways, äijä is from Äijö.. some forest deity... Now in some dialects they still remain in use as "proper" terms for "father", "mother" and "wife".

So the neighbour asking the son going down the path with his bride...
-Onko äijä pihas?
-Äijä on metsällä, mutta ämmä on pihas, joudamme akan kanssa kirkolle.

In modern Helsinki speak äijä means husband ... ämmä more widely in dialects (kylän ämmät )and akka is used as "old hag"... "akka" is used sometimes to denote "my wife" but usually in male company
- tilulilulilu
- Voi v* jätkät nyt hiljaa, akka soittaa.

Now here also used is jätkä which translated to guy, bloke but means originally an itinerant manual laborer satamajätkä tukkijätkä stevedore, logger ...
Besides jätkä, sälli cf. kisälli, apprentice was used in Helsinki slang... or a good-for-nothing vagrant is a hampuusi cf. hamnbus (a satamajätkä :lol:) so it denotes a bit of a dodgy character. Now the Swedish loans... mummo/mummi (granny), muija (wife) -compare with faija/fatsi (father), fabu (old man), mutsi (mother)... come from mamma, gumma, farfar, farbror , moder etc... anyways better to say vanhoja mummoja than vanhoja ämmiä.


While we're at calling people names, kids speak any adult male is setä (uncle, specifically fathers brother)and any adult female is täti (aunt)... So kids are told sano sedälle kiitos (say the man "thank you") but you differentiate a vieras setä and vieras täti from relatives, so they are warned against strange uncles as it can be some naapurin setä is a namusetä (calling someone a candy-uncle in Finnish...hrm... Michael Jackson on namusetä :twisted: ) Estonian interestingly uses a similar denotion of uncles... though they use onu (in Finnish eno uncle-specifically mothers brother)...

So where were we again... I got struck by a vocabulary lightning :lol:
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.

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Re: Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

Post by Rob A. » Fri May 16, 2008 3:11 am

More language practice... I decided to see just how the concept of "God's Arrow" came to be inscribed on an old piece of birchbark found on the edge of Lake Ilmen... :)

In English you get to the Old Testament Book of Zechariah/Sakarja:9:14

"And the LORD shall be seen over them, and His arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord GOD will blow the horn, and will go with whirlwinds of the south."

Raamattu
Suomen evankelis-luterilaisen kirkon kirkolliskokouksen vuonna 1992

Sak 9:14 -- Herra ilmestyy omiensa avuksi.
Kuin salaman hän sinkoaa nuolensa.
Herra Jumala puhaltaa pasuunaan,
hän kiitää etelästä polttavassa myrskyssä.

Raamattu 33/38

Sak 9:14. Herra on näkyvä heidän yllänsä, ja hänen nuolensa lähtee kuin salama. Herra, Herra puhaltaa pasunaan ja kulkee etelän myrskytuulissa.

Biblia 1776

Sak 9:14. Herra on heille ilmestyvä, ja hänen nuolensa pitää lähtemän ulos niinkuin pitkäisen leimaus; ja Herra, Herra, on basunalla soittava, ja menee niinkuin lounatuulen pyöriäiset.

Raamattu 1642

Sak 9:14 HERra on heille ilmestywä/ ja hänen nuolens pitä lähtemän ulos nijncuin pitkäisen leimaus. Ja HERra Jumala on Basunalla soittawa/ ja mene nijncuin lounat tuuli.

Vanha Testamentti 1552 Sak 9:14

HERRAN pite heiden ylitzens ilmestymen/ ia henen Noolens pite vloslectemen/ ninquin Pitkeisen Leimaus. Ja HERRAN Jumalan pite * Basunalla soittaman/ ia menepi ninquin Lounat twli.


...I'm not sure how useful all of this is.... :) But maybe seeing how the language changes, even at a subconscious level, probably helps in understanding it... Hmmm...maybe... I seem to be getting something out of this, anyway... :)

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Re: Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

Post by Københavner » Sun May 18, 2008 1:54 am

With the uralo-altaic language family largely (but not completely) in dispute and tantalizing yet inconclusive evidence linking uralic and indo-European languages, I think it's a bit early to single out Finnish as the oldest language in Europe when its relation to other language families in this continent is still murky.

I'd settle for most unique language of Europe though.

buldozr
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Re: Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

Post by buldozr » Sun May 18, 2008 10:27 am

Hank W. wrote:While we're at calling people names, kids speak any adult male is setä (uncle, specifically fathers brother)and any adult female is täti (aunt)... So kids are told sano sedälle kiitos (say the man "thank you") but you differentiate a vieras setä and vieras täti from relatives, so they are warned against strange uncles as it can be some naapurin setä is a namusetä (calling someone a candy-uncle in Finnish...hrm... Michael Jackson on namusetä :twisted: ) Estonian interestingly uses a similar denotion of uncles... though they use onu (in Finnish eno uncle-specifically mothers brother)...
That must be a cross-cultural trait: for Russian kids every adult is similarly an uncle or an aunt until you grow a bit older.

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Re: Finnish Europe's Oldest Language

Post by Hank W. » Sun May 18, 2008 10:41 am

Ah, of course that is where taata for old man or grandfather comes from. So does it translate then - would you say Michael Jackson is a djadja kartofka :twisted: 8) :lol:
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


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