studying in U of Helsinki this September; Having Questions

[sinikala]

but the masters students I know all have had a stipend "salary" so they are not paying any taxes.

You men they're on the KELA handout? Erm.. actually one pocket to the other, but it *is* taxed

I suppose he means the difference between palkka (salaried, social costs, taxed) and palkkio (stipendium, no social cover, not taxed).

[sinikala]

What if I tell you that I'm going to come back to my Home country? In that case You'll be providing me free education without any benefit for your own nation?!

Then that is charity from the Finnish state, which will directly benefit underdeveloped nations such as Iran and is the whole point of providing free education to people from such countries. I am quite happy to provide tax for that.

Unfortunately they often take the education without going back and using it to benefit the country they came from.

What if I was willing to stay finland? Then I would be that stupid immigerant who has occupied the career opportunities in your country and would not leave!

Finland needs skilled workers. You get the benefit of the education and in return you contribute by paying taxes back into the Finnish taxation system. This is even better than returning to your homeland.

I'm sorry my friend but if you're willing to think negative anything that I do would be against your benefit whereas beleive me that in reality this is not true.

I'm not your friend, I've never even met you!

Paying taxes is the duty of every person who lives in a society and is for everyones benefit!

That is correct, but as you don't live in this society, and have not paid taxes, why exactly should you benefit?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that I will too be paying taxes.

You will pay around 17% sales tax when you buy goods in shops. But that will essentially be it. If there is pay during the masters it is typically only for the diplomityö which is the final 6 months of the masters work, there is no salary the rest of the time.

Considering that the typical tuition fees for a non-EU student at a UK university are typically €12-13k p.a., on the basis that you would study for 2 years you would receive tuition worth €25k and contribute back a few thousand in tax, then you will not even come close to paying your way.

On the other hand you're not saying that Finnish universities choose thousands from hundred-thousnad of world wide applicants for nothing! An MS and PHD student has to perform some projects in order to be graduated and rewarded with a degree and those projects must be approved and leaded by the university and it would be to the university and the nation's benefit!

By the way, just to let you know, that "somebody" who you mentioned has already preferred a Finnish university over few Canadian universities and he might also prefer Finland than US for his PHDs. I never said I have decided to go to US I siad I just want to have the oppotunity in the future since I have an opportunity right now! People always make decisions that has the most advantages for them.

Not much sense in those last two paragraphs.

[Hank W.]

A foreign student cannot get the KELA handout, can they? Unless they first came to F. to do something other than work, etc.

Right, after which they are "Finnish" - there was the statistics released was it some 3000 "foreigners" received KELA student handout.

Same thing, "Finnish" cannot drive a "foreign" registered car. I and my sister both have a Finnish passport. My sister has a French car in France. She can drive her car here on holiday because she is not "Finnish". She is a "foreigner" for "residential purposes". So you are now also "Finnish" so you couldn't drive a car with Icelandic register plates.

[sammy]

A foreign student cannot get the KELA handout, can they? Unless they first came to F. to do something other than work, etc.

Right, after which they are "Finnish" - there was the statistics released was it some 3000 "foreigners" received KELA student handout.

The recent number was in fact close to 6000 - Russian citizens being the largest 'nationality' group. Estonian, Swedish and Somali nationals following behind. But the thing is, as Hank implied those ~6000 are 'foreigners' by citizenship only, they are considered to be permanently residing in Finland. That, rather than your nationality, is the key factor in deciding whether you are entitled to the KELA student support.

In other words

If your right to reside in Finland is based on studying here, your residence is not considered permanent => not entitled to KELA study support.

[sammy]

Fantastic scenes.

We (I) the finnish taxpayer will provide a free education to somebody from Iran, so they can get a degree in Finland which they intend to use in order to gain entry to the US?

Am I the only one who sees something a little bit wrong there?

Are folk over at Opetusministeriö naïve or just a bit thick?

I see what you mean, and to a largish extent I agree - but then again, at the end of the day couldn't you also say that

We (I) the finnish taxpayer will provide a free education to somebody from Finland, so they can get a degree in Finland which they intend to use in order to gain entry to the US?

I.e. there's no guarantee that a Finnish graduate would stay in Finland either.

Just an additional thought, not an answer to the dilemma.

[persia]

...Not much sense in those last two paragraphs.

...We (I) the finnish taxpayer will provide a free education to somebody from Finland, so they can get a degree in Finland which they intend to use in order to gain entry to the US?

I.e. there's no guarantee that a Finnish graduate would stay in Finland either.

Just an additional thought, not an answer to the dilemma.

That exactly what I'm saying. Like I said, People always make decisions that has the most advantages for them and that shall be. Everyone is paying taxes in every country and that fact is defenately not considered in anyones decision for his future. Think abit globally!

[sammy]

Think abit globally!

On the other hand - considering there has been talk (NB everyone, only talk so far) in Finland to introduce tuition fees to non-EU students. On a global scale... many other countries already have tuition fees, including of course the US, so in this regard would you be willing to "think globally" and pay annual tuition fees of 3500€ - 12.000€* to Finnish universities? Remember that would not include your living expenses in Finland.

*those were the sums that were suggested some years ago

[sinikala]

That exactly what I'm saying. Like I said, People always make decisions that has the most advantages for them

Which is why it makes little sense for Finnish taxpayers to pay to educate foreigners for no benefit to themselves.

Thanks for agreeing.

[Hank W.]

[
Which is why it makes little sense for Finnish taxpayers to pay to educate foreigners for no benefit to themselves.

So rthat is why the skinheads say "piss off" to wogs. Nothing bloody new in the universe.

[persia]

On the other hand - considering there has been talk (NB everyone, only talk so far) in Finland to introduce tuition fees to non-EU students. On a global scale... many other countries already have tuition fees, including of course the US, so in this regard would you be willing to "think globally" and pay annual tuition fees of 3500€ - 12.000€* to Finnish universities? Remember that would not include your living expenses in Finland.

*those were the sums that were suggested some years ago

Actually since I am thinking globally too, I might not be preferring Finlnad universities with that huge amount of tution fee, any more!
The free education service is actually the biggest reason for attracting students all over the world and there are other countries who provide free study, too.
Although In US and Canada you have to pay a heavy tuition, much more scholarships, TA/RAships, and part time jobs are available that usually covers the whole tuition and most of the living expenses; whereas in Europe (specially in M.Sc.) the scholarships are more awarded to EU citizens. If the same conditions be available in Finland again you might see me there but in practice the number of world wide applicants for Most of the EU countries who have changed their "free study" policy has been reduced.

[sammy]

Actually since I am thinking globally too, I might not be preferring Finlnad universities with that huge amount of tution fee, any more!
The free education service is actually the biggest reason for attracting students all over the world and there are other countries who provide free study, too.
Although In US and Canada you have to pay a heavy tuition, much more scholarships, TA/RAships, and part time jobs are available that usually covers the whole tuition and most of the living expenses; whereas in Europe (specially in M.Sc.) the scholarships are more awarded to EU citizens. If the same conditions be available in Finland again you might see me there but in practice the number of world wide applicants for Most of the EU countries who have changed their "free study" policy has been reduced.

I was thinking you might answer so There has been a lot of discussion on the pros and cons of tuition fees for foreign (non-EU) students, and similar points to what you made have been raised - see e.g. this one http://www.helsinki.fi/hyy/en/claims_and_facts.pdf

[persia]

I was thinking you might answer so There has been a lot of discussion on the pros and cons of tuition fees for foreign (non-EU) students, and similar points to what you made have been raised - see e.g. this one http://www.helsinki.fi/hyy/en/claims_and_facts.pdf

Intereseting!
Thanks for the link