Hamlet

[Rosamunda]

http://www.ylioppilasteatteri.fi/index_eng.html

Does anyone know if this is in Finnish or English???

Has anyone ever seen one of these summer performances?

[sammy]

I haven't seen their productions, but I strongly suspect their Hamlet will be in Finnish. Dunno if it's going to be "modernised" or the "classic" text... you could ask from "the source" - ylioppilasteatteriylioppilasteatteri.fi

Ollako vai ei olla, siinä pulma:
Jalompaa onko hengen kärsiä
Kaikk' inhan onnen iskut sekä nuolet
Vai käydä miekkaan tuskain mertaa vastaan,
Lopettain kaikki? - Kuolla, - nukkua,
Ei muuta; - luulla, uness' että päättyy
Tuhannet kiusat nuo ja sieluntuskat,
Nuo lihan perinnöt, - se loppu hartaast'
Ois halattava. Kuolla, nukkua: -
Nukkua! kenties uneksia? - siinä
Se vastus. Millaiset lie unet kuolon,
Kun poiss' on maalliset nuo ahdistukset,
Se arveluttaa. Ja nuo arvelukset
Ne elon kurjuutta niin pitkittävät.
Ken kärsis ajan ilkkua ja vitsaa,
Hylätyn lemmen tuskaa, korskan pilkkaa,
Vääryyttä sortajan, lain väännellystä,
Virastoit' ylpeitä ja potkuja,
Joit' ansiokkaat epatoilta saavat,
Jos puukon tutkaimella suoran tehdä
Vois elämästään? Ken nuo haitat kärsis
Ja hikois, voihkais elon kuorman alla,
Jos pelko, mitä tulee kuolon maassa, -
Tuoss' salatussa, jost' ei matkamiesi
Palaja ykskään, - niin ei huumais mieltä,
Ett' ennen kärsimme nää tietyt vaivat,
Kuin uusiin riennämme, joit' emme tunne?
Näin pelkureiks meit' omatunto saattaa,
Ja päätöksemme luonnonraittiin muodon
Mietinnän kalvas karva sairaaks muuttaa,
Ja innokkaat ja ytimekkäät hankkeet
Uraltaan luistavat tuost' arvelusta
Ja teon nimen kadottavat.

(translation by Paavo Cajander)

[Pursuivant]

I'd go see this
http://sub-zero.mit.edu/bakunin/hamlet.html

[Rob A.]

I haven't seen their productions, but I strongly suspect their Hamlet will be in Finnish. Dunno if it's going to be "modernised" or the "classic" text... you could ask from "the source" - ylioppilasteatteriylioppilasteatteri.fi

Ollako vai ei olla, siinä pulma:
Jalompaa onko hengen kärsiä
Kaikk' inhan onnen iskut sekä nuolet
Vai käydä miekkaan tuskain mertaa vastaan,
Lopettain kaikki? - Kuolla, - nukkua,
Ei muuta; - luulla, uness' että päättyy
Tuhannet kiusat nuo ja sieluntuskat,
Nuo lihan perinnöt, - se loppu hartaast'
Ois halattava. Kuolla, nukkua: -
Nukkua! kenties uneksia? - siinä
Se vastus. Millaiset lie unet kuolon,
Kun poiss' on maalliset nuo ahdistukset,
Se arveluttaa. Ja nuo arvelukset
Ne elon kurjuutta niin pitkittävät.
Ken kärsis ajan ilkkua ja vitsaa,
Hylätyn lemmen tuskaa, korskan pilkkaa,
Vääryyttä sortajan, lain väännellystä,
Virastoit' ylpeitä ja potkuja,
Joit' ansiokkaat epatoilta saavat,
Jos puukon tutkaimella suoran tehdä
Vois elämästään? Ken nuo haitat kärsis
Ja hikois, voihkais elon kuorman alla,
Jos pelko, mitä tulee kuolon maassa, -
Tuoss' salatussa, jost' ei matkamiesi
Palaja ykskään, - niin ei huumais mieltä,
Ett' ennen kärsimme nää tietyt vaivat,
Kuin uusiin riennämme, joit' emme tunne?
Näin pelkureiks meit' omatunto saattaa,
Ja päätöksemme luonnonraittiin muodon
Mietinnän kalvas karva sairaaks muuttaa,
Ja innokkaat ja ytimekkäät hankkeet
Uraltaan luistavat tuost' arvelusta
Ja teon nimen kadottavat.

(translation by Paavo Cajander)

Gosh ...how did I miss this thread???...

Well...I always liked this line:

Voi, Yorrick parka! Minä tunsin hänet...

Well...in English anyway....




...this is actually a "pic" of the "Hobbit"...

http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2008/0 ... tnews.html

[sammy]

...this is actually a "pic" of the "Hobbit"...

http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2008/0 ... tnews.html

Fancy that - by a strange coincidence, the professor in the picture bears more than a passing resemblance to the guy who played Gimli in the LOTR movies (John Rhys-Davies IIRC)

[Johnny_Peebucks]

I'd go see this http://sub-zero.mit.edu/bakunin/hamlet.html

[Our hope was to achieve something like the effect of the New English Bible. --Eds.]

Saaaaaands fackin' ace, wanka!

[Rob A.]

I haven't seen their productions, but I strongly suspect their Hamlet will be in Finnish. Dunno if it's going to be "modernised" or the "classic" text... you could ask from "the source" - ylioppilasteatteriylioppilasteatteri.fi

Ollako vai ei olla, siinä pulma:
Jalompaa onko hengen kärsiä
Kaikk' inhan onnen iskut sekä nuolet....

...and since this thread has re-emerged, I thought it might be productive to "parse" this sentence....

First, the "official" English original:

"To be, or not to be, that is the Question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the minde to suffer
The Slings and Arrowes of outragious Fortune"

The first part is pretty easy...literally, "To be or not be, that is dilemma"

....but I have a several questions....in a previous thread we dealt with the olla(=to be) and olla olemassa=(to exist) distinction... So I guess the quick question here is... Would a Finn relate to this line as it is written in Finnish in the same manner as an English speaker would relate to the English version??....That is; that it is about the "dilemma" of existence... In other words, is the term, olemassa "available" as an "optional extra", if the context requires it??.... Is it being "proper" Finnish to include olemassa or is it merely pedantic???...


Now the rest of the passage is giving me greater problems....I can translate words, but I can't get a proper sense of the literal flow of these words...

jalompaa=nobler (in partitive)
hengen=spirit (in genitive)
kärsia=sufferings (a noun in the the partitive plural??)
kaikki=all
inhan=??
onnen=luck or fortune (genitive)
iskut=impacts
sekä=as well
nuolet=arrows

....So, literally, what are these two lines sayings....

[Jukka Aho]

....but I have a several questions....in a previous thread we dealt with the olla(=to be) and olla olemassa=(to exist) distinction... So I guess the quick question here is... Would a Finn relate to this line as it is written in Finnish in the same manner as an English speaker would relate to the English version??....That is; that it is about the "dilemma" of existence... In other words, is the term, olemassa "available" as an "optional extra", if the context requires it??.... Is it being "proper" Finnish to include olemassa or is it merely pedantic???...:)

It is so well-known and oft-quoted phrase even in Finnish that it’s hard to think about it analytically any longer... or, indeed, gauge whether it would be immediately understandable as an existential dilemma when you hear it the first time, with no previous exposure to Shakespeare or knowledge about the context. But a straightforward, more modern, and less ambiguous version of “the Question” would probably be something along the lines Ollako olemassa vai ei?

Of course, if we are to understand the Question blandly just as “whether to commit suicide or not” – instead of talking vaguely or philosophically about “being” – there are several other ways how you could express it.

Now the rest of the passage [Jalompaa onko hengen kärsiä / Kaikk' inhan onnen iskut sekä nuolet....]is giving me greater problems....I can translate words, but I can't get a proper sense of the literal flow of these words...

[...]

kärsia=sufferings (a noun in the the partitive plural??)

Note the correct spelling: kärsiä. It’s just the verb kärsiä (“to suffer”) in its “dictionary form”; the first infinitive.

inhan=??

An archaic form of the adjective inhottava, in genitive singular. The nominative is inha.

iskut=impacts

..., attacks, blows, strikes, punches, ...

So, literally, what are these two lines sayings....:)

Jalompaa onko hengen kärsiä
“Nobler is it for the spirit to suffer[?]” (the -ko suffix in onko makes it a question, not a statement)

Kaikk' inhan onnen iskut sekä nuolet....
“All horrid strikes/blows of luck as well as arrows [of luck]...”

[Rob A.]

Thanks Jukka

....but I have a several questions....
...

So, literally, what are these two lines sayings....

Jalompaa onko hengen kärsiä
“Nobler is it for the spirit to suffer[?]” (the -ko suffix in onko makes it a question, not a statement)

Kaikk' inhan onnen iskut sekä nuolet....
“All horrid strikes/blows of luck as well as arrows [of luck]...”

Thanks...hengen in the accusative...I think??... and kärsiä as the verb infinitive.... OK just to turn this around a bit for analysis purposes....

Se on jalompaa hengen kärsiä. ..."It is nobler for the spirit to suffer."

So the way I see it, jalompaa is in the comparative partitive form ...Could jalompata also be used???

hengen is in the accusative...I think???...Is a preposition equivalent to the English, "for" implied in this clause??... How can hengen stand on its own??? ...It does not seem to be the direct object of anything...??....

The third line seems clear enough, though...

[Jukka Aho]

Jalompaa onko hengen kärsiä
“Nobler is it for the spirit to suffer[?]” (the -ko suffix in onko makes it a question, not a statement)

Thanks...hengen in the accusative...I think??...:) and kärsiä as the verb infinitive....

Exactly. Modern (and somewhat less poetic!) texts would normally turn this into: “Onko hengen jalompaa kärsiä[?]”

OK just to turn this around a bit for analysis purposes....

Se on jalompaa hengen kärsiä. ..."It is nobler for the spirit to suffer."

So the way I see it, jalompaa is in the comparative partitive form ...

Correct.

Could jalompata also be used???

Heh, where did that one come from? :) It could, but it’s an archaic or dialectal form...

Actually, It would go stylistically very well with the works of Shakespeare, but it can’t be recommended for modern prose. (It sounds a bit funny word to me, to tell you the truth – the way how some dialectal/local words often do. But it’s Finnish all right.)

hengen is in the accusative...I think???...Is a preposition equivalent to the English, "for" implied in this clause??... How can hengen stand on its own??? ...It does not seem to be the direct object of anything...??....

Let’s straighten up the word order a bit (since it’s “too poetic” in it’s original form to make heads or tails of it):

Hengen on jalompaa kärsiä. = “It is nobler for the spirit to suffer.”
Janoisen olisi parempi juoda. = “It would be better for the thirsty (one) to drink.” (“You’d better drink if you’re thirsty.”)
Junan pitäisi jo tulla. = “The train should come, already.”
Sinun täytyy lähteä mukaan. = “You need to come along.”
Minun pitää seurata sinua. = “I have to follow you.”
Hänen on myös tultava meidän kanssamme. = “He/she has to come [is to come] with us, too.”

I think what we’re dealing here with are necessive expressions, and all this is also related to modal verbs. There’s quite impressive overview of this subject here, but it is in Finnish (check out the sample sentences, though.) Something similar can be found here, in English, but simplicity does not seem to have been the topmost consideration for the author when he wrote his book... and, curiously, some of the sample sentences seem to be a bit off.

Until writing this reply, I didn’t even know that Finnish has something called “necessive expressions” or “necessive verbs”, so I don’t have any quick, hard-and-fast rules for you, at this point. Sorry. :( But there seems to be quite a lot of material on this on the web, and the word “necessive” is, in itself, a giveaway of sorts...