Getting a job in Finland with a foreign degree

[Hank W.]

The HS writes of recent statistics. According to KELA it is more difficult for those [Finns] studied abroad to get a job in Finland than for those with a Finnish degree. After graduation, 50% of those studied abroad got a job, compared to the 65% of those graduated with a Finnish degree. Of these some 1/5 worked in some other profession than what they studied for. Of those with a foreign degree 1/4 worked in some other job that what they studied for. The most popular study countries [for Finns] are UK, Sweden, USA and Germany. The most common foreign degree is one in Business.

So no use whining why you don't get a job, nobody else does either, find the queue end at McD hiring line with that international marketing paper.

[Rick1]

Yep what a farmer does not know, he does not eat

[sammy]

The most popular study countries [for Finns] are UK, Sweden, USA and Germany.

Strange - the latest KELA stats I've seen on study grants provided for Finnish DEGREE students abroad showed that Estonia was the third most popular, ahead of USA and Germany. Somehow this did not come out in the survey - perhaps the popular target countries were defined from the data gathered within this survey, not from the national stats? Anyway I thought Estonia deserves a mention here.

One of the reasons the Finns who've studied abroad stated for the possible difficulties in getting jobs when they come back is the lack of existing networks... it's not necessarily merely a question of a "foreign" degree. Here's another, earlier study (in Finnish only) from the employers' point of view, for all interested (and with Finnish skills )

[Hank W.]

Abstract
Saarikallio M, Hellsten K, Juutilainen V-P. From higher education to work? – A comparison of foreign and domestic pathways. Helsinki: The Social Insurance Institution, Finland, Studies in social security and health 96, 2008. 140 pp. ISBN 978-951-669-775-1 (print), 978-951-669-776-8 (pdf).

There are few published studies about Finns who have taken a higher education degree abroad. This despite the fact that about 4,000 recipients of student financial aid study abroad every year. The purpose of this study is to examine school­to­work transition among those who tooked a higher education degree either abroad or in Finland during 2002–2006. The aim of the study is to find out what advantages or disadvantages a foreign degree has in terms of labour market out­ comes. The data used in this study are drawn from a survey conducted in 2007 and include information about 858 foreign and 1,502 domes­tic graduates. According to the results of the survey, the most popular countries to study abroad are Great Britain, Sweden, the United States and Germany. Graduates from abroad more often have well ­educated parents and often have prior experience of living abroad themselves.

The most frequently given reasons for choosing to study abroad were interest in studying abroad, improving language skills and even a love of adventure. Most typically, graduates from abroad have studied busi­ness and administration. For both research groups, the most important source of financing their study was student financial aid (study grants and housing supplements). Graduates with a foreign degree are more likely to have taken out a student loan than domestic graduates. They also receive more financial support from their parents. Half of those who graduated abroad and 65 per cent of those who graduated from Finland were employed upon graduation. One third of graduates from abroad and one fifth of domestic graduates experienced unemployment during the research period. A majority (80%) of respondents in both research groups were employed at the time of the survey.

A notable part of domestic graduates work under temporary employ­ment contracts. There are no great differences in wages among the two groups. One quarter of graduates with a foreign degree state that there is a mismatch between the skills they possess and the skills required at work (over­education), which is somewhat more than the correspond­ing share among domestic graduates. More than 40 per cent of graduates with a foreign degree were still living abroad at the time of the survey and most of them had a foreign spouse. Almost 80 per cent of them believe that they will be living abroad in five years’ time.

Key words: higher education, school­to­work transition, study abroad, employment

[DMC]

After graduation, 50% of those studied abroad got a job, compared to the 65% of those graduated with a Finnish degree. .... The most common foreign degree is one in Business.

Hank, you often write that business degrees are useless for getting a job, which (if you are right) raises an obvious question here. How much of the 50% to 65% comparison is due to having studied abroad, and how much is due to the subject studied? It would be interesting if the report gave a comparison by subject area to establish that.

[Hank W.]

Well, I wouldn't say they are "useless" per se, but basically what we have here is "market saturation" and an oversupply of business degree graduates (in the wrong departments) as to the demand. There are too many chiefs but no indians. These Nowheremäki polytechnics churn out business graduates 13 a dozen while the HKKK and Hanken churn out economists. All want to be the caliph in place of the caliph. But there is nothing to market. The economy is crap. Add to this then the English-speaking graduates who are not only lingusitically challenged but lack all the nepotist ties and their chances to get a job?

Basically, the situation of a fresh graduate in any field has always been - if not hard but challenging. Its the catch-22 of needing work experience to get a job and not getting work experience as nobody gives you a job - and then you don't get hired for a "crap job" because you don't have the motivation and will bugger off the minute you find something else.

Also, and here we get to the "elitism", anyone studied Economics in Sweden or Medicine in Estonia is a "loser" who couldn't pass the entrance tests in Finland and went there as it was easier to get in... you get to USA or UK to study by paying money - see now how sinful that is? On the other hand Finnish students are almost chased out of the country to do an exchange these days, but doing a whole degree is regarded somewhat dodgy. Maybe not up front, but somewhere back there is a gnawing feeling... is is it kosher as kossu? The problem is the employer can relate how easy/hard it is to get a given degree in Finland, but cannot quite "fit in the box" foreign degrees. And as you see there in the abstract - most of those students are living abroad and have a foreign spouse. Now thinking the person was not a "loser" to go studying abroad - they went and paid big money to get to the lands of milk&honey like USA where theres megabazillion bucks careers to make even by playing ice hockey, or even to Germany and at least earn your Mercedes-Benz... returning straight home makes you... a loser? So if they-who-know-your-degree wouldn't hire you - why should we? Damaged goods that one...

Though you have a quite similar discrimination in France. Its the only country I know of something of having followed my sisters family and how important it is to get the study place right after the matriculation. And trying to get into French universities with foreign papers... oh la la... I wonder how many French students pursue studies abroad and then get a job in France?

[sammy]

More than 40 per cent of graduates with a foreign degree were still living abroad at the time of the survey and most of them had a foreign spouse. Almost 80 per cent of them believe that they will be living abroad in five years’ time.

IIRC the earlier study I referred to made an interesting reference to this theme - some employers may think that "studying abroad" is a sign of restlessnesss, of inability to settle down - why employ someone who's likely to bugger off in a couple of years?

Toinen työnantajien opiskeluaikaiselle kansainväliselle
kokemukselle antama tulkinta liittyy niin
ikään hakijan henkilökohtaisiin ominaisuuksiin,
mutta nyt negatiivisiin ominaisuuksiin. Opiskeluaikainen
kansainvälinen kokemus, varsinkin jos
sitä on runsaasti ja sirpaleisesti, saatetaan tulkita
merkiksi hakijan levottomuudesta ja kyvyttömyydestä
asettua aloilleen.

(page 53 in this survey)

[Hank W.]

why employ someone who's likely to bugger off in a couple of years?

Which is the poodles nucleus in the question "why is it so hard for a foreigner to find a job in a Finnish company".

[sammy]

why employ someone who's likely to bugger off in a couple of years?

Which is the poodles nucleus in the question "why is it so hard for a foreigner to find a job in a Finnish company".

poodles nucleus - tuo tekee järkeä ulkomaalaisille, eikö se teekin?

[Hank W.]

Kiusa se pienikin kiusa

[sammy]

Incidentally, as this survey was about Finns who have studied abroad rather than "foreign" job seekers in Finland, if anyone's interested there was also this survey made a few years ago

http://myy.helia.fi/~tk-hanke/Ulkomaala ... silmin.pdf

ULKOMAALAISET TYÖNANTAJAN SILMIN - "Se on niinku tyyppi, tyyppi ja osaaminen, ei se tutkinto, ei"

Minna Söderqvist

Aiemmin ulkomaalaisia suomalaisilla työpaikoilla on tutkittu joko maahanmuuttajien näkökulmasta tai tilastollisena ilmiönä, ei työnantajien silmin. Söderqvistin tutkimuksen tarkoituksena on auttaa työnantajia rekrytoimaan ulkomaalaisia, ulkomaalaisia työllistymään ja suomalaista yhteiskuntaa kansainvälistymään. Tutkimuksessa selvitettiin, mikä estää ja mikä edistää ulkomaalaistaustaisen rekrytointia ja miten esimiestyö muuttuu, kun on alaisina ulkomaalaisia. Kattava aineisto kerättiin lähettämällä kysely ja haastattelemalla erilaisia työnantajia ympäri Suomea.

Tuloksista käy ilmi, että korkeakoulujen kansainvälistyminen on osa alueen kehittämistä ja alueittain on merkittäviä vaihteluita. Työnantajat kokevat, että korkeakoulut ovat auttaneet alueita kansainvälistymään ja monikulttuuristumaan!

Ulkomaalaisten työllistymistä estää se, että ulkomaalaisuutta ei huomioida henkilöstöhallinnon prosesseissa eikä henkilöstön johtamisessa, vaan ulkomaalaisia rekrytoidaan ikään kuin he olisivat suomalaisia. Ulkomaalaisuutta ei osata hyödyntää (liike)toiminnassa. Ulkomaalaiset eivät myöskään hae laajasti eri työpaikkoihin. Ulkomaalaisten hyödyntäminen tuloksenteossa on lapsenkengissä. Työyhteisöjen ja lähiesimiesten puutteellinen kulttuuriosaaminen estää ulkomaalaisten osaamisen täyden hyödyntämisen.

Moninaisuuden johtaminen tuli esille vain yhden kerran koko tutkimuksen aikana. Kansainvälinen näkökulma henkilöstöjohtamisessa on Suomessa lähes olematon ilmiö. Ulkomaalaisia ei rekrytoida aktiivisesti, poikkeuksena ovat huippuosaamista vaativat organisaatiot. Ulkomaalaisen suorittama suomalainen tutkinto ei ole merkittävä rekrytointiperuste.

Ulkomaalaisten työllistymistä edistää, jos palkkaavalla työnantajan edustajalla on henkilökohtaisia kansainvälisiä kokemuksia, tai jos (liike)toiminnan ydin on kansainvälinen. Ulkomaalaisiin suhtautuminen on merkittävästi erilaista, jos yrityksen tai organisaation toiminnan ytimenä on kansainvälisyys, tai jos johto on ulkomaalainen.