Here we go again..another school shooting

[Pursuivant]

And schools no longer offer as many clubs as they used to. After school clubs are a great way to get kids to socialise outside of the classroom.

thats what we get for "saving"...

[sammy]

And schools no longer offer as many clubs as they used to. After school clubs are a great way to get kids to socialise outside of the classroom.

thats what we get for "saving"...

Roll on huippuyliopisto

[Kupcake]

Stupid cops, can't find another way to describe these losers.

You are assuming that the police can do whatever they want to do. They have to act within the law.

I'm assuming they acted within the law, and that's why their hands were tied, so to speak. i'm sure if they were suspicious enough to question him, they would have held on to him or "shadowed" him, if they had the authority to and if they had the resources to do it.

So i'm presuming the laws have to change if the police are to have the power they need to handle situations like this.

Correct me if i'm wrong, and this is only one example, but after 9/11 America brought in a new law that changed the way the authorities could "handle" suspected terrorists. Prior to that, there was only so much they could to when they suspected somebody of terrorist activities.

But then again, this could all be part of the master plan to end the world, eh Starviego??

[raskarhu]

Who said they have to control and spy on every citizen? Do not put words in my mouth please. I'm talking about a person that posted a movie on Youtube in which he is posing with a gun, and saying things that could remind the cops of an earlier event in November 2007 in which people where slaughtered. I am not talking about 'every home and party and bar', I'm talking about the terrorist that killed 9 people just last tuesday.

And you bet that if he had been a brown-faced muslim who had posted a similar thing on youtube, that he would have been arrested on the spot or at least they would have had his phone tapped and they would have shadowed him.

Kind regards
Raskarhu[/quote]

Read news again... Those videos were uploaded just before shooting.[/quote]

Why did they question the guy? Because they had found posts of him posing with a gun. They were suspecting him. But he's white, so inoffensive by definition ...

[Kupcake]

And you bet that if he had been a brown-faced muslim who had posted a similar thing on youtube, that he would have been arrested on the spot or at least they would have had his phone tapped and they would have shadowed him.

Do we have anti-Muslim sentiments here in Finland???? I'm unaware of them.

[sammy]

They were suspecting him. But he's white, so inoffensive by definition ...

Frankly, this skin-colour/religious background speculation leads absolutely nowhere. Think carefully about this next sentence: if you're so sure about how the Finnish police would have reacted in case it had been -say- a Somali guy*, then prithee tell me, how unprejudiced and unbiased are you yourself in this issue?

*) and it wasn't <- the main point to note

[otyikondo]

The last twenty or so posts highlight starkly the point I was trying to make on another thread - or this thread, I can't remember and I can't be arsed to look - about the importance of getting one's ducks in a journalistic row before going into print with nonsense about police officers looking at a video of a man saying "Now you will die" and then letting him go with a pat on the head.

Raskarhu (apparently based in Brussels, but hey, I'm in Namibia, so who knows where the the hell he is) has laboured under the unfortunate misconception, put out by a global media machine in an awful hurry to meet its modern 24-hour-rolling-news obligation, that something happened which patently DID NOT happen.

It makes for a simpler, neater, racier story, and it conveniently sticks the blame on a single PC Plod in some provincial police department, but as Sammy so cogently points out, the problem is deeper and wider and murkier by a mile.

Thinks: can something be murky by a mile? Nah, not really, but I kind of like the sentence, so sod it.

[Rabs]

They were suspecting him. But he's white, so inoffensive by definition ...

Frankly, this skin-colour/religious background speculation leads absolutely nowhere. Think carefully about this next sentence: if you're so sure about how the Finnish police would have reacted in case it had been -say- a Somali guy*, then prithee tell me, how unprejudiced and unbiased are you yourself in this issue?

*) and it wasn't <- the main point to note

[Paul_D]

I knew already about the fact that Finland is ~3rd in the ratio gun/inhabitant.

But I was surprised to learn that the age limit for getting a gun is 15 years old in Finland. And until recently, Finland has been actively lobbying for keeping this low age-limit, as one can read in this wikinews: November 9, 2007 - Finland considers tougher gun laws

Until now, Finland has actively resisted plans for all European Union member states to limit gun ownership to persons aged 18 and over. Currently, the law stipulates that Finns may apply for a gun permit at age 15.

I would see an untold reason for this finnish exception (dont' call me starviego, though ) : Russia. Why was it forbidden for foreigners to buy land or property in Finland until the mid-nineties ? Russia. Why do Finland refuse to ban landmines ? Russia. Why do Finland promote a gun-culture, and seem to encourage discreetly people to be good at shooting with guns ? Errr... see my point?

I have tried to see if my point has any solid ground, but I could not really I lack info... So, it would be great if someone could
- summarize the gun laws in Europe, particularly in Nordic and Baltic countries
- summarize the military service in Europe, particularly in Nordic and Baltic countries

At least, in the 4 articles of wikipedia related to gun politics in european countries, it seems that Finland is definitely liberal for gun laws, but far from the extreme of .... Switzerland !

UK: extremely strict Gun politics in the United Kingdom

[...]some of the strictest gun legislation in the world.

Germany : tight Gun politics in Germany

A number of criteria must be met before a firearms ownership license is issued:
* age of consent (18 years for rimfire arms/21 years higher calibers) (§ 4 WaffG)
* trustworthiness (§ 5 WaffG)
* personal adequacy (§ 6 WaffG)
* expert knowledge (§ 7 WaffG) and
* necessity (§ 8 WaffG) (Necessity is automatically assumed present for licensed hunters and owners of a carry permits (Waffenschein)).

Finland: liberal Gun politics in Finland

Conversely, a license for a pistol or a rifle is relatively easy to obtain, although the police usually require that the first gun is suitable for a beginner (usually a gun chambered in .22LR or single shot shotgun).

Switzerland: owning a gun at home is made quite mandatory by the governement Gun politics in Switzerland

The gun policy in Switzerland is unique in Europe. The personal weapon of militia personnel is kept at home as part of the military obligations. This, in addition to liberal gun laws and strong shooting traditions, has led to a very high gun count per capita. Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, but also one of the lowest firearm related crime rates in the world. In recent times political opposition has expressed a desire for tighter gun regulations.

The image below, found here on Wikipedia, shows a swiss citizen shopping in the supermarket with his big riffle hanging in his back


/Paul

[starviego]

The New World Order will not allow any private use of firearms. Therefore I predict Switzerland will be next on the hit list.



------------

GLADIO
'You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game,' he said. 'The reason was quite simple. They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public, to turn to the State to ask for greater security. This is the political logic that lies behind all the massacres and the bombings which remain unpunished, because the State cannot convict itself or declare itself responsible for what happened.'
-"Vincenzo Vinciguerra, a convinced Fascist who was a member of the extremist Ordine Nuovo organisation and had close links with Gladio


"We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality."
--Ayn Rand

[otyikondo]

Starviego:

Humo(u)r me... answer a question or two, please.

Do you:

a) own a hunting rifle
b) a hand-gun
c) an assault rifle
d) a small arsenal of firearms

(You may write "aaaaa" or "bbbbbbbb" or "ccc" if you own multiples of the category)

Then a second question:

Why do you own a gun?

In your own words, please. I mean presumably you feel a need to own one, either for "sport" or "protection", but why, exactly?

A third question:

Why should I own one? Assume I'm not interested in killing wild animals but lazy enough to let a butcher do the dirty work.

Fourthly...

Since your country's economy is in an apparently irreversible economic tailspin that is likely to affect you and yours a great deal more than the tragic events in a small Finnish provincial town,

Why are you so obsessed with what happened in Kauhajoki and so eager to draw your own conclusions based - just as earlier with Jokela - on flawed information from international media sources that are unlikely to have all the facts at their disposal? The fire chief stuff was just LAME and hugely embarrassing for all of us on your behalf, and there have been numerous other spurious charges that are easy to debunk but tend to distract people who actually have to LIVE in this country from looking at what brought us here and pondering ways out of our unpleasant situation.

I don't wish to be rude, but your input to the discussion is a bit similar to an buzzing house-fly's contribution to watching a complicated television drama or having a Jehovah's Witness ringing the doorbell during a Bach fugue. Which is probably why you find yourself getting swatted so often.

I'll spare you the tie-breaker about why you like Kelloggs' Corn Flakes in 12 words or less.

[starviego]

I support the right to keep and bear arms, let me put it that way. Smart men never give the power of life or death over themselves to their governments. All governments go bad eventually. "Power corrupts" it is said. And it is true. Governments deliberately murdering their own people are quite common, as any historian can point out.

"Why are you so obsessed with what happened in Kauhajoki?"

It's not just the latest rampage. I have been studying them ever since Columbine(20-4-99), and when I discovered the truth about that event, I knew it could only be a covert op. And all the rest have fallen into a similar pattern. Re-read my profile on page 6 of this thread. Is it not accurate so far? Why is it we have so many of these events in the last 15 years, and what is the motive? Those questions has never been answered. But we are not talking about the mysteries of quantum physics here. Just a simple question of why these kids are doing this. Even the experts have to concede, "there is no such thing as a motiveless crime."

Well there is a reason these things are happening. But the ordinary citizen is too frightened to even contemplate it.

---------------
"Must men alone be debarred the common privilege of opposing force with force, which nature allows so freely to all other creatures for their preservation from injury? I answer: self defence is a part of the law of nature, nor can it be denied the community, even against the king himself..."
- John Locke, Two Treatises of Government, 1689

"Self defence is justly called the primary law of nature, so it is not, either can it be in fact, taken away by the laws of society."
- Sir William Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws

[otyikondo]

Ah. The TRUTH.

That explains it, then. Why didn't we think of that?

If you don't mind, I'll pass your e-mail address on to the Finnish government (before they stop being merely incompetent and go irrevocably bad, of course). I'm sure they will appreciate your help in resolving our little problem. The poor things are running around like headless chickens looking at all the wrong causes.

Now your job is done here. Move on, please, and settle the Middle East morass before bedtime.

But whilst I think you are a complete fruitcake, deep in my heart I'm genuinely saddened [irony off] you have so much confidence in the malevolence of your fellow-citizens, some of whom presumably are "your government". It must be a terrifying thought that armed American stormtroopers could at any time break down your door and kill you. I'm fairly sure they would be better armed than you, even if you might down a couple of them.

We in Finland are worried these days about our "brand-image" (ironically enough a committee was formed to look into improving it a matter of days before the sh*t hit the fan). However, if enough Americans really feel as you do, your nation's image problems make ours pale by comparison.

BTW, how do you dare go to the doctor? Isn't it quite likely the profession has been infiltrated, and your physician will prescribe you a lethal toxic cocktail that makes it look like you had a simple heart attack?

Proverbs for Paranoids, 4: "You hide, they seek." (Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow)

[starviego]

If you are going to email that crack team investigating this case, tell them I want to talk to "HESSU." And ask them, if it is true Saari had contact with Pekka Auvenin, if Matti Saari's name came up in the Jokela investigation. And if so, did they interview him last year already? Now that is something I would dearly like to know!!

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/bTHURS ... 5239733955
The Finnish weekly magazine 7 päivää carries an article today in which a friend of the Kauhajoki school shooting gunman Matti Juhani Saari claims that Saari called him shortly after killing ten people in a classroom. "We greeted each other quite normally, and I asked him in the normal way what he was up to", says the student, who was named in the paper as Rauno.
"He announced in a perfectly calm voice that he had shot ten people at the school and he was calling to say goodbye."
Rauno, who studies somewhere other than Kauhajoki, reports that the call came in on Tuesday morning at 11:53.
In the newspaper interview, Rauno says that he then asked his friend several times to repeat what he had just said, and that Saari had repeated the admission perfectly calmly. The paper additionally claims that Saari said he had been planning the act for two years, according to Rauno's account. He had further requested during the final call that Rauno arrange for his body to be cremated. "Finally he said something like 'Goodbye, mate'".
Rauno reports that he had known Matti Saari for several years. Already in the early stages of their friendship, Saari had apparently complained that he had been badly teased and bullied while at school, in particular in secondary school. The bullying had continued into lukio, or upper secondary education.
Rauno says that around two years ago he began to notice that his friend had changed in somewhat scary fashion.
Saari began to show off shooting video-clips he had found on the YouTube site, and had told him of his admiration for the American school shootings. Eighteen months ago Rauno had received a message overnight, in which Saari said he was "going to do something big and shoot a lot of people in a school somewhere".
"I called him back in the morning and expressed my astonishment at the message, but he just grunted and said it was mostly only kidding around." Rauno says he became concerned when Saari had told him he intended to take up shooting.


Well all I can say it is sure convenient for the official version of events for this guy to show up. No doubt about it now. Saari definitely did it. Or so says the mystery witness. He even provides a motive!

This reminds me of the Myyrmanni shopping center bomber Petri Gerdt, 19 who killed 7 people back on 10-11-02. In that case another mystery witness, "Hessu," came forward to sweep away any doubts about the guilt of the accused:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9649C8B63
He appears to have had few acquaintances there, but the newspaper Ilto Sanomat printed an interview with a young man(aka 'Hessu') in his 20s who said he met Mr. Gerdt in a bar a year or so ago and became his friend, even as Mr. Gerdt began to speak obsessively about explosives. He ''was just raving,'' said the man, who telephoned the police hot-line number with his account of their friendship and whose statements are now being investigated by the police. ''It was nothing but 'bomb, bomb, bomb.' I never believed he would carry out his plans.'' The friend, who spoke on condition that his name not be used, told the newspaper that Mr. Gerdt had been ''excited'' by the Sept. 11 attacks and that when he discussed his own scheme, he always spoke of setting a timer so that he could escape before the bomb went off. If that is true, he clearly miscalculated and did not get out in time. ''He didn't believe he would be caught,'' the friend said. ''He said he could then boast about what he did to his buddies.''

[Comment: The quite, introverted loner goes into a bar and starts 'raving' on how he wants to bomb a lot of innocent people, so that later he can 'boast' about it to his non-existent friends. Suuuure..... ]

Anyway I have serious doubts about this oh-so-convenient "Rauno" character who seems to be playing the same role for Matti Saari.

[sammy]

wankawankawanka

Starviego, I have only ONE thing to say to you. Saying it will utterly waste two minutes of my life, but here goes.

Even if those (imaginary) New World Order chaps were at this very moment aiming at my house with their mind-control rays at ready, black trench coats ominously flapping in the early morning autumn wind, perchance offering a fleeting glimpse of a cloven hoof - I would still find the likes of you more sick, more inhumane and more repulsive.

You want to know why?

Because in none of your posts have you ever shown a slightest bit of sympathy or sorrow for those who have been killed, or to those who have lost a friend, son, daughter, father, mother. (Dare I include the killers themselves in that number, too, now that my own anger at what has happened has toned down a bit? Yes.)

That was it - now do carry on with the disinformation and delusion. Or, alternatively, go stick your head in a pig. Whatever you choose to do, please just don't bother to answer. The sound you just heard was the pressing of the "ignore" button.