Here we go again..another school shooting

[Rosamunda]

Even the idea of making all hand gun licences subject to the providing of "a mental health evaluation by a doctor, certifying that the permit-seeker does not have any mental illness or problems that might pose danger to him or herself or others" is not a sure stop all.

It also assumes that doctors will be willing to do this task.

It only takes the finger of blame to be pointed at one doctor, who issued an OK certificate to someone, who later runs amok with a gun, for the medical profession to stop this work. Medical diagnostics can never be 100% sure.

That is if they ever agree to start this task.
Read here.
http://www.yle.fi/news/left/id103162.html

I can understand why the medical assoc does not agree to this. Medical professionals are needed on the ground, helping sick people, not in offices filling in pieces of paper. And such a system would put any individual doctor in a difficult position since he may fear reprisals for giving a negative assessment. Surely the army would be the best place to do this. Apparently they are already doing some kind of assessment during military service (which is presumably why Saari was sent home to grow up). And spending a year in the army could be a pre-requisite for having a gun licence anyway.... rather than the "join a shooting club" that was introduced a year or so ago. And I don't think this discriminates against women, they can volunteer for the army if they want to. It would also effectively increase the age for legally holding firearms to at least 18 yrs.

Agree with the others though. This won't fix the fact that there are kids with bad karma out there.

[paulrenn]

what was that village some fishermen actually did pull the plug off a pond and emptied it into some old mineshafts?

Don't know, but the picture is probably one of the overflows at Ladybower reservoir in Derbyshire.

Yep... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladybower_Reservoir

All the best for your return to the US Scuba, any thoughts on returning to Finland in the future or did you get your fill?

That's the closest 'lake' to where I grew up, and those terrifying plugholes the reason I find it a little bit daring to go swimming in a lake.

Wow, I have been many times to Ladybower when I were a nipper but never saw that overflow...must be pretty astonishing sight.
Seems like there are quite a few refugees from "Oop North" around

[TampereOwl]

We spent many a Sunday tramping round the Peaks when I was a kid, and they often involved driving past Ladybower and stopping at the damns for a cup of tea. They were usually in full flow in February, March and April, if I remember right, and I thought they must have had them on the bottom of the reservoir too....

If we ever went swimming it was up at Slippery Stones.

[Upphew]

And spending a year in the army could be a pre-requisite for having a gun licence anyway.... rather than the "join a shooting club" that was introduced a year or so ago. And I don't think this discriminates against women, they can volunteer for the army if they want to. It would also effectively increase the age for legally holding firearms to at least 18 yrs.

Agree with the others though. This won't fix the fact that there are kids with bad karma out there.

I don't agree with mandatory military training before gun license. It would mean that some people couldn't get gun license even though they would be mentally ok to carry, but not physically able go to the army (amputee, bad knees, allergy, etc.). And what about those that can't go to the army anymore (too old) but would like to have a permit (immigrants and returning expats comes to mind)?

[Tiwaz]

Ownership of a gun is not right. If you can't go through army, maybe alternative could be found but it should be one which does not permit you to get past any easier.

Namely, extensive tests etc (preferably on applicants money).

Wanting a permit should never be enough, you need reason for the permit.

[Pursuivant]

I'd say a similar tests you need to get a permit for gas when you are a security guard... you need more testing for that than a handgun for sports...

[sinikettu]

There is a very good feature article in the Int Hesa.

It is quite long but this point is very relevant.

The small pistols used in Jokela and Kauhajoki had nothing to do with sports shooting, says Risto Aarrekivi,
executive director of the Finnish Shooting Sport Federation.
The guns used in Jokela and Kauhajoki were .22 calibre pistols.
The type was previously popular in competitive shooting, but then some .22 calibre pistols came onto the market
that were certainly no sporting goods. They were copies of larger pistols used by police and soldiers.
“They are militaristic in appearance, and appeal to people who want to swagger and intimidate others, but who are
unable to get licences for a larger weapon”, says Helsinki gun dealer William Waldstein.
“I am amazed that anyone would want to grant a licence for something like that”, Aarrekivi says.

Read the rest of the article here
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/A+fare ... 5239858082

Here are a couple of photos to help illustrate the point.
1: A competition 0.22 hand gun.
http://www.vapa.org.au/Images/Free%20Pistol%202.jpg

2: The Gun used in the school shotings.
http://www.weaponryonline.com/images/re ... er-p22.jpg

[luckykitty]

Yeah exactly, i kept wondering all along why people would be allowed these guns. Under the laws, u're not supposed to use them except at appropriate venues, like a shooting club or some show or something,. Why should people even own these kinds of guns, like automatic pistols :s. And also people should really look at bullying in school or mental issues, cos the ppl who turn into gunmen are usually mad at society or feel ostracised or feel like loners, so there must be some way to help these people and create a healthier social environment, especially in highschool etc.

[onkko]

"this kind of weapon" oh yeh...
My friends have shotguns and rifles for hunting, few euros and they have semi automatic shotgun with 10 shot magazine. Lets talk about how lethal that is..
And about "that kind of weapon".. i can buy uzi if i want to, i have shot with assault rifle without permission and could buy it with 2000e. 9mm handgun with 200e and no one asks for permits..

[sinikettu]

i can buy uzi if i want to, i have shot with assault rifle without permission and ..

I have read many of your posts and thought that you might be a dick head..now you confirm my thoughts.

This news item would imply that "N" should pass your IP address to the authorities and/or block it.
moi moi...
http://www.yle.fi/news/id103208.html

[Chrysoberyl]

There is a very good feature article in the Int Hesa.

It is quite long but this point is very relevant.

The small pistols used in Jokela and Kauhajoki had nothing to do with sports shooting, says Risto Aarrekivi,
executive director of the Finnish Shooting Sport Federation.
The guns used in Jokela and Kauhajoki were .22 calibre pistols.
The type was previously popular in competitive shooting, but then some .22 calibre pistols came onto the market
that were certainly no sporting goods. They were copies of larger pistols used by police and soldiers.
“They are militaristic in appearance, and appeal to people who want to swagger and intimidate others, but who are
unable to get licences for a larger weapon”, says Helsinki gun dealer William Waldstein.
“I am amazed that anyone would want to grant a licence for something like that”, Aarrekivi says.

Read the rest of the article here
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/A+fare ... 5239858082

Here are a couple of photos to help illustrate the point.
1: A competition 0.22 hand gun.
http://www.vapa.org.au/Images/Free%20Pistol%202.jpg

2: The Gun used in the school shotings.
http://www.weaponryonline.com/images/re ... er-p22.jpg

This is basically true,but at the same time quite inaccurate.The competition pistol shown is a single shot, designed for 50m free pistol,which is only one modality among several in pistol competitive shooting.For 25m standard pistol you need a semi automatic .22 pistol,and although of course the Walther shown there wouldn't qualify,there are other models in the market that would be an excellent first gun for those starting this sport without having to shell the thousands of euros required for a professional competition pistol.Are those guns to be banned? you can definitely kill with a competition pistol too,that's for sure.Suddenly,everybody involved with this hobby is going to pay for two events in decades of responsible gun ownership in Finland.

[sinikettu]

.For 25m standard pistol you need a semi automatic .22 pistol,and although of course the Walther shown there wouldn't qualify,there are other models in the market that would be an excellent first gun for those starting this sport without having to shell the thousands of euros required for a professional competition pistol.

Are those guns to be banned?
Suddenly,everybody involved with this hobby is going to pay for two events in decades of responsible gun owning in Finland.

The point that Risto Aarrekivi, executive director of the Finnish Shooting Sport Federation, was trying to make that you seem to over look, is his specific reference to the gun type used in both shootings; a Walther P22.
He said..“I am amazed that anyone would want to grant a licence for something like that”

I would hope in future that those who issue gun licences will have the benifit of advice, from the likes of Mr Aarrekivi, as to what is a real sporting gun, and what is just a macho status symbol like the Walther P22.

[Pursuivant]

if thats a macho gun its like getting a porsche-built VW doka instead of 911 as a peniksenjatke

[sinikettu]

if thats a macho gun its like getting a porsche-built VW doka instead of 911 as a peniksenjatke

Macho looking gun...like macho looking car..
I saw a Fiat with a Ferrari badge on it last week..I could see it was not a Ferrari, but I cannot tell from that photo of a Walther P22 that it is not a 0.45 Magnum, but like most others on this board I know Ferrari from a Fiat, but not a 0.22 Plinker (name given to guns that prentend to be their bigger brother) from a police Magnum, especialy if it is being waved under my nose by a nut case.

[luckykitty]

Maybe for sports shooting they could lend out the guns at the venue so people wouldn't have to take them home or to school? Like you could borrow it while at a shooting club. But yeah, its pretty complex. The real cause of the incident is that the shooter had mental issues or some problem against life/society etc, but the other problem is that its so easy for people like that to get a gun, maybe the government should at least try to make it harder somehow. Maybe a very long waiting period until they can get a gun :O, like after they are 25 or something? Maybe their teen angst or homicidal rage will have subsided (not guaranteed, although maybe they would have come across some psychiatric help by then). They are all kind of copycat murders, at least the idea is the same, and we know that teens tend to copy other people or celebrities. Somehow it seems like young people are searching for some kinda self identity but half the time they just borrow that from someone else because its hard finding your own (look at street fashion? :S). It's really weird that these people commiting these acts of mass violence can't see that shooting random people isn't going to help society, it's kind of like people entranced by some cult or some idol or something, and doing whatever they see some other 'role model' do. Or they are just so full of rage that they just cracked and could do something like that. What happened to empathy for other people? No wonder someone wrote in to the newspaper about cleaning up TV violence: I dont think its that we get ideas from violent movies, its just that some people are so desensitised to violence that maybe they dont have any empathy towards other humans at all. And i guess guns are also glorified too much in movies. (Yes and the shooters tended to favour guns that look 'cool' or macho. Maybe if we only sell guns that look really thin, wooden and un'macho' they would be too embarrassed to use them cos it would look daft committing mass crime with aforementioned sports pistol? :S). Pursuivant: maybe it was as macho as their student budgets could afford :s. Anyway its not like people buy uzis (except onkko), we have to take into account what THESE guys would like. http://www.wayodd.com/guns-used-at-virg ... eo/v/7017/
even the Virginia Tech killer used the same gun! It's a trend, just ban the Walter 22 or anything that looks like similarly shaped to those arcade guns for Time Crisis or something .