Hotel cleaners include a Government Minister

[sinikettu]

Aila Forsström of the cleaning company Sol says that of the 550 cleaners she employs , 80 per cent have foreign backgrounds. The cleaners include engineers, PhDs, kindergarten teachers, bookeepers, teachers, dental nurses, interpreters, and one ballerina. And last week Immigration Minister, Astrid Thors, tried her hand at hotel cleaning.


http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Immigr ... 5240242968

She seems to be genuinely concerned that the only job available for many well qualified foreigners is cleaning.
There is a tendency in Finland to look down on degrees from abroad, and language requirements are unreasonable.

[sammy]

In all fairness, it would be equally hilarious to read about some non-Finnish speaker immigrant's experiences as a Government Minister

But seriously, I think it is true that in some professions, the Finnish language requirements (or at least initial language requirements!) may be too strict. I wouldn't classify jobs like "teacher" to this number, though - keeping in mind that there's only a handful of foreign-language schools in the whole of Finland.

(Mind you, this will lead into another fruitless debate... one consolation is of course that it'll be in English )

[sinikala]

(Mind you, this will lead into another fruitless debate... one consolation is of course that it'll be in English )

Without any debate, do you believe that the Immigration Minister would be prompted to test for herself the menial jobs that some immigrants are filling in Finland? So, the debate has not been fruitless, it has served a purpose.

Continued debate may result in a reassessment of methods used for getting the most benefit out of qualified foreigners in the workplace - which would benefit Finland as well as the guest workers. No debate will result in the generation of an underclass of immigrant workers which in the long term will not help either the state or the workers. Lack of opportunity undermines social cohesion.

Integration is expected ... but make sure you get the crusty bits at the bottom of the toilet.

What is not addressed at all is whether these menial jobs are occupied by
1) qualified people who have come to Finland e.g. as spouses or as refugees and once here, unable to find work in the fields in which they are qualified, drift into menial jobs as an alternative to unemployment.
or
2) economic migrants who can earn more as a cleaner in Finland than they can as a teacher in Poland.

In England up until the £ started to fall against the €, there were a large number of the latter.

[sammy]

(Mind you, this will lead into another fruitless debate... one consolation is of course that it'll be in English )

Without any debate, do you believe that the Immigration Minister would be prompted to test for herself the menial jobs that some immigrants are filling in Finland? So, the debate has not been fruitless, it has served a purpose.

I should perhaps have stated more clearly that with "debate" I referred to the usual bickering on this forum (why doesn't somebody else do something?), I did not mean to question the value of debate on societal/political scale at large.

Carry on...

[sinikala]

I should perhaps have stated more clearly that with "debate" I referred to the usual bickering on this forum (why doesn't somebody else do something?), I did not mean to question the value of debate on societal/political scale at large.

Without the "usual bickering" on fora such as this, I doubt that there would be a "debate on societal/political scale at large".

The locals would quietly ignore the skinny brown men and women who do the cleaning. You're a Helsinki resident, ever used the car park under Stockmann?

[Rosamunda]

What is not addressed at all is whether these menial jobs are occupied by
1) qualified people who have come to Finland e.g. as spouses or as refugees and once here, unable to find work in the fields in which they are qualified, drift into menial jobs as an alternative to unemployment.
or
2) economic migrants who can earn more as a cleaner in Finland than they can as a teacher in Poland.

3) foreigners who have been recruited abroad to fill vacant positions in Finland

I believe SOL is one of those companies that actively advertises abroad and recruits foreigners from eg: China. I'm sure HS ran an article about that recently. I wonder if SOL's recruitment policies bear scrutiny.... how many of those ballerinas, PhDs, dental nurses etc have fulltime permanent contracts and permanent residency to go with it....? What are SOLs motivations for recruiting foreigners?

IT companies also recruit a lot of foreigners for project work and typically on temporary contracts with temporary visas.

[sinikala]

Not that I disagree with you, but that is covered by 2.

[Rosamunda]

OK. Though I tend to think of economic migrants as people who turn up looking for work... I remember being quite surprised when I read that SOL was actually going looking for employees in other countries.

[sammy]

The locals would quietly ignore the skinny brown men and women who do the cleaning. You're a Helsinki resident, ever used the car park under Stockmann?

No, mostly because I can't afford (and to be honest: am not interested in, and do not need) a car. However, regardless whether it's in the some car park or the Metro or whatever public place, certainly I do not ignore "the skinny brown men and women" doing the so-called menial chores any more or less than I ignore the other people moving out and about in Helsinki. Or perhaps you are insinuating that since I'm a Finnish person, and mistake gnat's piss for tea, that sort of thing (i.e. ignoring the furriners) is just the sort of behaviour that could be expected of me?

Relax. I really, really only meant fruitless debates à la Tiwas v. Rest of the World.

See? We're bickering already...

[sinikettu]

So why did this minister clean a hotel room?
Helsingin Sanomat and Radio Helsinki challenged Thors to see what it is like cleaning in a multicultural working community.

Why did she accept the challenge ?
I believe it was to draw attention to the situation which would probaly have otherwise gone un reported/not debated.

The challenge came as a side issue from the press who were there (invited by SOL).
She (and the press) was there at the invitation of SOL because of the article that Penelope refers to.

She wanted to talk to foreign well qualified immigrants, who appeared to be doing work way below their academic qualifications and skills and wanted to know, "why?"
She sees a danger that a two-tier labour market might be emerging - if it has not come about already.
“It’s all about attitude”, the minister says. Thors notes that no miracle cure seems to exist
But at least the minister responsible now knows from first hand experience more than she would have otherwise known.
So hopefull some smart arsed civil servants will not be able to con her into believing...That the situation does not really exist.

[sinikala]

Relax. I really, really only meant fruitless debates à la Tiwas v. Rest of the World.

I know what you meant, but was arguing with what you wrote.

The locals would quietly ignore the skinny brown men and women who do the cleaning. You're a Helsinki resident, ever used the car park under Stockmann?

No, mostly because I can't afford (and to be honest: am not interested in, and do not need) a car. However, regardless whether it's in the some car park or the Metro or whatever public place, certainly I do not ignore "the skinny brown men and women" doing the so-called menial chores any more or less than I ignore the other people moving out and about in Helsinki. Or perhaps you are insinuating that since I'm a Finnish person, and mistake gnat's piss for tea, that sort of thing (i.e. ignoring the furriners) is just the sort of behaviour that could be expected of me?

I'm not insinuating anything ... I'm stating openly.

In turn, I rarely use the Metro, but can believe that there are migrant worker cleaners to be found down there... another dark, unpleasant, subterranean workplace that your average local would want to avoid.

As we don't currently live in Hki, we tend to stock-up in Stockmann, we need to go there by car (can't carry that much stuff on the tram). It's not a case of ignoring them, it's that I find it interesting that there are lots of brown skinned people shuffling the rubbish bins in the lower levels, moving empties... but I've never seen any stacking shelves, operating a checkout. Out of sight, out of mind?

It's a generalisation on my part - Finnish folk are unlikely to complain publicly, and usually accepting of the status quo. They are satisfied with their lot. Change is met with suspicion. "It has always been done like this" is a common phrase. These are reoccurring themes on here. Without someone questioning, debating, (even whining like Tizwaz), the status quo would continue.

Even though I don't agree with "positive discrimination", people should have a fair crack of the whip. So, I'm happy to read about that Minister checking out that kind of job for herself. Even if it is a publicity gimmick of a kind, it's the right kind, and draws attention to the issue.

See? We're bickering already...

There wouldn't be much point in a discussion if everybody agreed.

[sammy]

I'm happy to read about that Minister checking out that kind of job for herself. Even if it is a publicity gimmick of a kind, it's the right kind, and draws attention to the issue.

Agreed (even if it makes discussion pointless)

[Pursuivant]

There is a tendency in Finland to look down on degrees from abroad, and language requirements are unreasonable.

sweet tapdansing jehovah, is Astrid Thors actually against pakkoruotsi?

[Upphew]

sweet tapdansing jehovah, is Astrid Thors actually against pakkoruotsi?

I think she is against pakkosuomi, shes betting that swedish would be easier for foreigner to learn...

[mayan]

I tried to get a job as a cleaner at Sol and other big Finn cleaning companies for 6 months, including calling them, visiting, sending the application online and didnt even get one; That was before, during and after the news that SOL was recruiting workers from abroad. I a foreigner and as many others was desperate for a work even as a cleaner and got really disappointed at knowing that they were looking for people abroad. Just got work after knowing Finnish language enough to understand the Työvoimatomisto site.