Finnish level 1-2-3

[Tiwaz]

Huh? That would mean to export the Finn to somewhere abroad and give him language training there? Well, why not?

If employer so wishes.

Issue with immigrant employment is that immigrants refuse to see situation from native point of view. What would you people think if I walked into your country and started demanding that government must subsidize me for getting a job because I only speak Finnish and have little to no chance to get a job that way?

Because that is what it would be. Attempt to give benefits to foreigners because they can't compete due to their own lack of skills. Because that is what it is. Immigrant fails to present themselves to employer as something/someone who gives more than takes. Is that fault of Finland or employer? Of course not. It is fault of immigrant.

As the job office tells every unemployed. "YOU have the main part". Finn who fails to convince their prospective employer that he is source of profit either now or very soon will not be employed either.


Every time people want to complain about how Finland does this or doesn't do that. Ask yourself, and be honest. How much could Finn expect your government (or native country in general) to help him if he moved to your country of origin and had as much language skills (namely replace your native language with Finnish and so forth) and cultural skills (namely Finn knowing and understanding culture and society of your country of origin as well as you do. If you are continuously baffled by something in Finland, odds are that you understand very little. If you are not, either you understand well or are just jaded) as you here in Finland.

My guesstimate is that in most cases, about as little or less as you get in Finland.

[Majava]

I was about to answer to what you said, but your choice of words makes me to believe that there is no way of trying to make you see things from a different point of view. You are shifting the issue (availability of language courses) by blaming a complete group of people for it that have no way of influencing that.

immigrants ...
refuse to see situation
started demanding
their own lack of skills.

Face it Tiwaz, immigrants come here no matter what you want. They do not come here already possessing Finnish language skills and they need to get jobs eventually otherwise tax payers will pay the price for years and years of unemployment benefits.

Would I see things from your perspective, then I should (when I still lived in my country of birth) have not been employing a couple of very competent workers of foreign origin because they were quite poor with their local language skills. Language über alles! The only one who is demanding is you!

[debonaire]

That is very much true.

Everything else would be twisting the job market by offering government subsidies for certain groups but not others.

Foreigner should be given same benefits as Finn in same situation. Nothing less, nothing more.

Man...you are in for a rude shock....Do you know that the government susbsidises a company which hires an immigrant sent to it by the employment office....Ofcorse the immigrant undergoes internship in the company during which the company trains and evaluates his/her performance and if the person is suitabe to be hired...Once the person(immigrant) is offficially on the payrolls,the government subsidises 50% of the person's salary being paid by the company for the first 6 months...so technically,the company is only paying half the salary while the rest is being paid by the government...

[Tiwaz]

Man...you are in for a rude shock....Do you know that the government susbsidises a company which hires an immigrant sent to it by the employment office....Ofcorse the immigrant undergoes internship in the company during which the company trains and evaluates his/her performance and if the person is suitabe to be hired...Once the person(immigrant) is offficially on the payrolls,the government subsidises 50% of the person's salary being paid by the company for the first 6 months...so technically,the company is only paying half the salary while the rest is being paid by the government...

And if Finn who is unemployed does not have same opportunity it is practice which should be stopped and foreigners brought back to equal level. I do not say that system is perfect, but that is hardly excuse to try to imbalance it even more.

And Majava. Language courses would be arranged if people were willing to pay for them. Someone would notice opportunity for making more money.

But if people do noto pay for courses... Who in their right mind would arrange them?

[rinso]

that immigrants refuse to see situation from native point of view.

Well, it is you who refuses to see the situation in a realistic perspective.
Immigrants will come and stay, no matter what. If you want to prevent problems in the future (second, third generation) they need to integrate. For that you need language and jobs. So it benefits Finnish society if you help immigrants with their language and finding them jobs. And it is more efficient to combine the two; learning the language on the job.
Hiring a non-Finnish speaking immigrant above a Finn with the same professional qualifications, is in most cases not an attractive option for the employer. Some (financial) incentive from the government is a good way to balance things.
The example from Debonaire shows that the government also sees it that way.

[debonaire]

Man...you are in for a rude shock....Do you know that the government susbsidises a company which hires an immigrant sent to it by the employment office....Ofcorse the immigrant undergoes internship in the company during which the company trains and evaluates his/her performance and if the person is suitabe to be hired...Once the person(immigrant) is offficially on the payrolls,the government subsidises 50% of the person's salary being paid by the company for the first 6 months...so technically,the company is only paying half the salary while the rest is being paid by the government...

And if Finn who is unemployed does not have same opportunity it is practice which should be stopped and foreigners brought back to equal level. I do not say that system is perfect, but that is hardly excuse to try to imbalance it even more.

And Majava. Language courses would be arranged if people were willing to pay for them. Someone would notice opportunity for making more money.

But if people do noto pay for courses... Who in their right mind would arrange them?

An unemployed finn has more chances of getting a job than an unemployed immigrant...its a way by the government to provide an opportunity to an immigrant to be able to get started...and even by providing this incentive for the employers to hire talented immigrants,its hardly guarantees that the immigrant would be hired taking in view of the lack of finnish skills and negative attitude of some employers against the immigrants...basically they can keep the immigrant working for them for as long as an year without being bothered to pay a single penny or the obligation of hiring him/her...do you think a finn would be willing to work without being paid and without the guarantee of being hired at the end of the internship...do you think a finn would be arsed to work 8 hours a day while being paid a paltry unemployment money without the promise of being hired at the end of the period...

and as for the paid language courses,trust me they are hardly any better...i had joined a professional language course which in my opinion was nothing but a sheer waste of time and money...ofcorse you have no idea of all this

[Tiwaz]

An unemployed finn has more chances of getting a job than an unemployed immigrant...its a way by the government to provide an opportunity to an immigrant to be able to get started...and even by providing this incentive for the employers to hire talented immigrants,its hardly guarantees that the immigrant would be hired taking in view of the lack of finnish skills and negative attitude of some employers against the immigrants...basically they can keep the immigrant working for them for as long as an year without being bothered to pay a single penny or the obligation of hiring him/her...do you think a finn would be willing to work without being paid and without the guarantee of being hired at the end of the internship...do you think a finn would be arsed to work 8 hours a day while being paid a paltry unemployment money without the promise of being hired at the end of the period...

Commonly they do. If they give you a job, you are by law required to accept it or you lose your benefits. Either it's the job or period of no benefits unless you can show that it could not be considered suitable for you.

And työllistämistuki does exist for Finns as well.

Again, it is not fault of Finland that immigrants can't speak properly or present themselves properly.

I once again ask, how much support I could expect if I moved to your country of origin and only spoke Finnish and would have no idea how to properly present myself in your native culture?

You guys are eager to demand, how much your home countries deliver?

and as for the paid language courses,trust me they are hardly any better...i had joined a professional language course which in my opinion was nothing but a sheer waste of time and money...ofcorse you have no idea of all this

So find one which offers better teaching. Perhaps pay more.

Or come up with your own solution. How many and how good language courses I could expect to be arranged for me if I moved to your country of origin and did not speak local language?

[rinso]

How many and how good language courses I could expect to be arranged for me if I moved to your country of origin and did not speak local language?

I know for a fact that the situation in my home country is much better than in Finland.
Not only the availability is better, but often the courses can be combined with vocational training as well.
And most is free, so no barrier for a poor immigrant.

[Pursuivant]

yeah, but the companies abuse this system like they abuse the traineed from polytechnics. they're not interested in hiring the person, they're interested in having the 6 month cheap labor and then getting the next one.

[raamv]

IMPO, I ve seen many take Course after course at work and Never put it to use.
kurssin jalkein, Kokous ja keskustelut ei ole suomeksi!!
Generally, in practice, Unemployment office sends people to find temp. jobs that might result in permanent ones. Its more often Not than yes.

[Upphew]

yeah, but the companies abuse this system like they abuse the traineed from polytechnics. they're not interested in hiring the person, they're interested in having the 6 month cheap labor and then getting the next one.

I suspect that companies would rather take Finn for free labor than foreigner: if and when Finn is not hired after "trainee" period, he grumbles by himself or with his mates and walks back to the työkkäri. If foreigner gets same treatment there will be some flower hat auntie to raise hell about that.

[raamv]

Yeah, in Finland, there are lots and lots of small companies, generally dealing with high tech business and they just cannot afford to hire a non-Finnish speaking individual and hope that the entire team which had a lot of cohesion adjust to the newcomer..
It has happened numerous times that I ve seen and creates an atmosphere of tension--
For the Finn, they feel guilty that they are speaking Finnish where they can freely express themselves..
For the Foreigner, who thinks that the Finns are capable of speaking in English and simply stops trying bcos, the language is hard or that they just dont want to get out of their discomfort zone..ultimately isolating themselves ...
The best way is to try to speak and engage in Finnish asap. This helps both parties in building up the confidence, and the relationship to a better future..
But most foreigners that I see and meet with say that they are OK with the Finns adjusting to their situation..and so dont get out of their discomfort zone and dont see that the majority are in their discomfort zone..and sooner or later..its gonna be decision time..

[Pursuivant]

Huh? That would mean to export the Finn to somewhere abroad and give him language training there? Well, why not?

well thats what the parents spend huge monies to spend their kids - if not to high school in USA then atleast 6 weeks to Brighton...

[Pursuivant]

Would I see things from your perspective, then I should (when I still lived in my country of birth) have not been employing a couple of very competent workers of foreign origin because they were quite poor with their local language skills. Language über alles! The only one who is demanding is you!

would I not be able to schreib ein bißen, and be able to bezahlen mit Überweisung
and say shicken Sie bitte mit DHL Päckchen, I'd lost pretty many "nicht Ausländer" and "nur Deutsch sprechen"... then again I wouldn't have 16 cameras and 2 cars in various states of repair as I'd paid 10x the price in Finland and only could afford maybe one each... so that is a mixed blessing innit?