Shops to open every Sunday :-)

[richard berman]

http://www.yle.fi/news/left/id107990.html

[raamv]

thats what I call a legislation politically crafted...
Then Unions are going to use the "timing card"..
So Prisma and K city market opening hours could look like : 12-4
Which means that it wont last long!!
I ll still be skeptical until I see it lasting for some years ( from 2009 as its a good year for testing retail chains)

[ajdias]

I am not so optimist but maybe I am just an uninformed pessimist

If the shops are open longer hours /more days their costs will go up.
Question for the optimists: how will they make up for those costs if all chains do the same (as is typical)?

[richard berman]

I also just heard that the ALV (VAT) will go down to 12% next October for food, so lets see if the prices go down in the shops or will they keep the extra profit or give it back to the customers, the hairdressers sure took the piss out of the lower VAT rate and took all the profits.

[riku2]

>>If the shops are open longer hours /more days their costs will go up. <<

so based on this excellent logic a shop that opened one day a week would have really low costs and could undercut all competitors with their lower prices. surely someone should try this low cost concept !

might it not happen that by opening the shops 7 days a week then finns might spend more of their money in shops rather than on more traditional weekend pursuits like summer cottages and boating, so overall consumer retail spending goes up. certainly it's obvious from watching tv commercials that finns don't spend as much on furniture and plasma tv's as brits do.

what will probably happen in reality is that big stores like prisma with very low proportion of workers/sq m will easily handle opening every sunday (and if they introduce automatic check out machines then very low extra costs). it's the small shops that will suffer since proportionally their labour overheads are much higher. but why should they be protected anyway ? can't market forces be left to decide where society wants to spend it's money - cheap prices in huge citymarkets or more expensive in some pipsqueak of a corner shop.

[Sulka]

Why only stores? Why should not every other business be open on Sunday? And Saturday? Why should people have the archaic luxury of weekends? Aren't two weekdays off just as good? Don't we want the ability to do anything anytime?

[ajdias]

>>If the shops are open longer hours /more days their costs will go up. <<

so based on this excellent logic a shop that opened one day a week would have really low costs and could undercut all competitors with their lower prices. surely someone should try this low cost concept !

Brilliant explanation of marginal cost concept.... you probably even get it because you give a reasonable answer for the question on your last paragraph.

[Karhunkoski]

Benefits:

- food waste (stuff that goes out of date before it's sold) will reduce.

- gives more opportunity for Finns to spend their money, which is exactly what the economy needs right now to keep it healthy.

[riku2]

Why should people have the archaic luxury of weekends? Aren't two weekdays off just as good? Don't we want the ability to do anything anytime?

when I was leaving university in UK and looking for jobs I remember Reuters news agency did this kind of thing - there you would work I think 7 days on and then 4 days off. Having your off days fall during the week is really nice if you want to go shopping (have you compared prisma at 11:00 on a Thursday (almost deserted) with a Tesco in UK at the same time (car park about 70% full) and if you want to travel (no problem getting cheap flights on a Wednesday night compared to a Friday night). But on the other hand your friends and loved ones will almost certainly not be in sync with your days off and that would cause trouble.

Don't we want the ability to do anything anytime?

i'm sure 100% of the finnish population want to be able to call an ambulance on a sunday, have power in their homes, read a new edition of a newspaper and catch a plane bus or train. you are making some value judgement about what "should" and "should not" be provided 7 days a the week. But finland really isn't a consumer society (although it's headed that way, slowly) so it's no surprise to hear the argument from finns that sunday shopping isn't really "necessary" and that shop workers should be allowed their day off work.

anyway I can't get too excited about sunday supermarkets in finland. at the moment even when open they are like UK supermarkets on sundays in the mid 90's (when sunday trading laws changed). There is no fresh bread, the meat counter is closed and most of the shelves look in a really picked over state. it will take at least 5-10 years for the bakers, delivery people and others in the chain to match this 7 day schedule .. and if the finns don't want to work 7 days to bake and supply these things to supermarkets 7 days a week then i'm sure those in poland and baltic countries will be happy to deliver food to finnish retailers - at a cheaper price too the question is will finns put their money where their mouths are and pay extra for finnish made/supplied food, or just buy the cheaper stuff coming from overseas.

[Upphew]

what will probably happen in reality is that big stores like prisma with very low proportion of workers/sq m will easily handle opening every sunday (and if they introduce automatic check out machines then very low extra costs). it's the small shops that will suffer since proportionally their labour overheads are much higher. but why should they be protected anyway ? can't market forces be left to decide where society wants to spend it's money - cheap prices in huge citymarkets or more expensive in some pipsqueak of a corner shop.

Big markets force your corner shop to close and the price is... 3 cents cheaper milk, 15cents cheaper bread etc etc. So consumer wins? No, only consumer with car or living in town with working public transportation wins. And I can tell you from my own experience that you don't cycle to "local" Prisma or Citymarket in winter unless you really have to.

[Tiwaz]

>>If the shops are open longer hours /more days their costs will go up. <<

so based on this excellent logic a shop that opened one day a week would have really low costs and could undercut all competitors with their lower prices. surely someone should try this low cost concept !

Only idiot would think that. They have to provide service. But service costs, specially on sunday when your worker receives 200% of their normal salary, thus increasing costs radically. Which would require for Finns to buy twice as much on sundays as they do on other days of week to make shop break even. But then Finns would have to keep buying equally much on other weekdays to prevent shop from going into loss.
Or prices would have to be hiked up.

Low population, low population density means there just isn't bulk of buyers which could keep markets making profit while increasing days shops are open without hike in prices or similar tricks.

might it not happen that by opening the shops 7 days a week then finns might spend more of their money in shops rather than on more traditional weekend pursuits like summer cottages and boating, so overall consumer retail spending goes up. certainly it's obvious from watching tv commercials that finns don't spend as much on furniture and plasma tv's as brits do.

Why should we? We do not spend as much as americans do either. And behold! We have decisively less issues with people getting way over their head in debt because they buy useless junk which costs natural resources to produce, and when replaced causes more issues in waste management. Which already can be appalling.

what will probably happen in reality is that big stores like prisma with very low proportion of workers/sq m will easily handle opening every sunday (and if they introduce automatic check out machines then very low extra costs). it's the small shops that will suffer since proportionally their labour overheads are much higher. but why should they be protected anyway ? can't market forces be left to decide where society wants to spend it's money - cheap prices in huge citymarkets or more expensive in some pipsqueak of a corner shop.

Yes, because market forces are so wise. There is no economical slowdown or depression underway because market forces were so wise that they knew how to regulate themselves.
No, wait. They don't. General Motors is close to going bust, lots of banks went bust. Other business trying to live off lack of regulation and other great market ideas are close to bust. Iceland is totally bust because they trusted the markets and went wild.

[the_student]

Only idiot would think that. ..

Low population, low population density means there just isn't bulk of buyers which could keep markets making profit while increasing days shops are open without hike in prices or similar tricks.

Why should we? We do not spend as much as americans do either. And behold! We have decisively less issues with people getting way over their head in debt because they buy useless junk which costs natural resources to produce, and when replaced causes more issues in waste management. Which already can be appalling.

No, wait. They don't. General Motors is close to going bust, lots of banks went bust. Other business trying to live off lack of regulation and other great market ideas are close to bust. Iceland is totally bust because they trusted the markets and went wild.

What an idiotic post.

For one thing Estonians over the pond have their shops open on Sundays and the Estonian popualtion is a lot smaller than Finland.

For those of you who think that the center of Finland revolves around the capital are you might want to know that in Tornio shops have been open on Sundays all year around for ages with no problem.

That is the beauty of competition, and the the inefficient shops go out of business. There are still plenty of mom and pop shops but they now compete on service.

And oh yeah, regarding people getting over their heads in debt, apparently you do not read the Helsingin Sanomat. GO there and see how nearly a third of Finns have two or more credit cards with the limits maxed out. And what does that have to do with stores being open on Sundays anyway ?????

Sunday opening hours are way overdue. And for those whining that the shelves are empty on Sundays, well darn, that never seems to be the problem at Iso omena or Lippulaiva on the other six months when the stores are allowed to be open on Sundays.

[Sulka]

Why should people have the archaic luxury of weekends? Aren't two weekdays off just as good? Don't we want the ability to do anything anytime?

when I was leaving university in UK and looking for jobs I remember Reuters news agency did this kind of thing - there you would work I think 7 days on and then 4 days off. Having your off days fall during the week is really nice if you want to go shopping (have you compared prisma at 11:00 on a Thursday (almost deserted) with a Tesco in UK at the same time (car park about 70% full) and if you want to travel (no problem getting cheap flights on a Wednesday night compared to a Friday night). But on the other hand your friends and loved ones will almost certainly not be in sync with your days off and that would cause trouble.

Don't we want the ability to do anything anytime?

i'm sure 100% of the finnish population want to be able to call an ambulance on a sunday, have power in their homes, read a new edition of a newspaper and catch a plane bus or train. you are making some value judgement about what "should" and "should not" be provided 7 days a the week. But finland really isn't a consumer society (although it's headed that way, slowly) so it's no surprise to hear the argument from finns that sunday shopping isn't really "necessary" and that shop workers should be allowed their day off work.

I was actually being ironic in my post. I work in a job that is affected by Sunday opens -- if they'd be open every Sunday, I'd probably be working every Sunday. And Saturday. I could sort of understand that, if there was some clear reason why other jobs get to keep the weekend tradition and we don't? I understand why vital services like health care or utilities must be 24/7. I don't understand how groceries count as similar to those, if other "convenience services" don't.

I predict that little by little, the weekend tradition will be eroded until it disappears, in all fields. At least if the labour market in the West keeps being a hirer's market. We're going to have to be so thankful for every job opportunity we have no choice but to be flexible, and flexible, and flexible.... Grocery stores are just among the first, because it's easy to harness public opinion for this cause, and the worker pool is vulnerable (a lot of young people temporarily in the field, or else somewhat uneducated people, i.e. low wage jobs).

[Upphew]

That is the beauty of competition, and the the inefficient shops go out of business. There are still plenty of mom and pop shops but they now compete on service.

Different country, different culture, different mentality. In finland there seems to be a very small fraction willing to pay for service. People won't accept very bad service, but otherwise cheaper wins 9 times out of 10.

[Tiwaz]

Only idiot would think that. ..

Low population, low population density means there just isn't bulk of buyers which could keep markets making profit while increasing days shops are open without hike in prices or similar tricks.

Why should we? We do not spend as much as americans do either. And behold! We have decisively less issues with people getting way over their head in debt because they buy useless junk which costs natural resources to produce, and when replaced causes more issues in waste management. Which already can be appalling.

No, wait. They don't. General Motors is close to going bust, lots of banks went bust. Other business trying to live off lack of regulation and other great market ideas are close to bust. Iceland is totally bust because they trusted the markets and went wild.

What an idiotic post.

For one thing Estonians over the pond have their shops open on Sundays and the Estonian popualtion is a lot smaller than Finland.

For those of you who think that the center of Finland revolves around the capital are you might want to know that in Tornio shops have been open on Sundays all year around for ages with no problem.

That is the beauty of competition, and the the inefficient shops go out of business. There are still plenty of mom and pop shops but they now compete on service.

And oh yeah, regarding people getting over their heads in debt, apparently you do not read the Helsingin Sanomat. GO there and see how nearly a third of Finns have two or more credit cards with the limits maxed out. And what does that have to do with stores being open on Sundays anyway ?????

Sunday opening hours are way overdue. And for those whining that the shelves are empty on Sundays, well darn, that never seems to be the problem at Iso omena or Lippulaiva on the other six months when the stores are allowed to be open on Sundays.

Well, your posts still stand unsurpassed in idiocy.

Have you noticed that stores in Estonia have hiked their prices up at rapid pace? In some areas 16% per year. This is because costs are accumulating, as their workers require real salary, 15%-20% increases per year.
Real salary, not peanuts like you think, costs money. This far Estonia still pays peanuts compared to Finland. But these stores have to live in Finland, paying Finnish salaries.
So those stores rely partially at weekend visitors from Finland to cover their sunday openings.

Only idiot does not look at price difference between Estonia and Finland.

And this competition crap. Where does competition go when all small stores die and you have handful of huge chains dominating the whole market? Where is your competition then? Of course you cannot think further than 5 minutes into future which makes you think this sunday thing is somehow good boost.

By the way, having credit card maxed out is irrelevant. It is at best very minor amount. We are talking about US style of having insane debts racked up and no sense in it either. Taking loan to buy house, then taking more loan for house with assumption of value increase to buy second car. Then more loan to guy new furniture. Finnish debt making is pitiful compared to that.

And this has everything to do with sunday openings, people will not suddenly start spending like there is no tomorrow, because there IS tomorrow in Finnish way of thinking.
Do you little fool grasp how often average Finnish family goes to market? Not often. Your weekly purchases are usually handled on your way home from work, no sunday needed. Only time when there is actual need for sunday openings is around idiotic consumerist celebrations like christmas when there is need to buy something as present for all those relatives.