Shops to open every Sunday :-)

[Tiwaz]

Needing to employ people at a higher (overtime) rate on a Sunday will be balanced either (a) by increased revenue from increased sales or (b) if sales are flat and you only get people switching their shopping days it means staffing requirements for other days will go down.

My guess is that in the big chains it will be a re-distribution of the usual Friday evening and Saturday lunchtime rush that we currently see. And the worry about small shops... what small shops?!

Finland lost it's highstreet traders long ago... the butchers, fishmongers, greengrocers, delis... outside of the Kaupahalli where are they? They seem to do a decent trade as market stalls. Bakers seem to have survived as they are often combined with a cafe... but I heard that the rest had disappeared in the 80's and '90s. The hypermarkets tend not to compete with those who remain.

And incase anyone wants to point out the obvious that I didn't mention, It's hard to believe increased opening hours would cause an overall drop in sales.

You are still failing to grasp the law in Finland which states that you get 200% salary on sundays.
Every workhour on sunday equals two on any other day. Expenses grow.

How are you going to sort that out? It's not like they have huge excess workforce left with all the YT.

You see, we can look at USA and Iceland how things turn out when you let people run business like they want. They end up going bust and hurting the society as whole.

To find a relationship between the sub-prime collapse and sunday trading is rather quite impressive. Can somebody pass Dishwash his dunce's cap?

Well, bluestupid, you clearly have not managed to notice that tar here thinks market forces should be permitted to make the decisions. I gave two prime examples on how marketforces fail to make right decisions.
Also, you again in your incredible inability to grasp things failed to realize that spending in Finland is far less than in USA, where you take debt to buy more junk. There, it is almost rule. Here, it is hobby of few idiots who are pitied by their surroundings.

Stores cannot make profit unless they increase sales, and sales just do not increase much since people do not overspend.

That is also explanation for tar about logic. And tar, you might want to figure out WHY no large store is not open less hours than their competitors. It might require some thinking from you, but it might do good to think reason-consequence relations instead of assuming stuff like bluearse here, and you tar.

So, arse and tar. Tell me, why every large store is open basically maximum amount of hours they can? They could be open less... But they do not.

So where is this "they can choose not to"-option if they cannot use it?

[sinikala]

You are still failing to grasp the law in Finland which states that you get 200% salary on sundays.
Every workhour on sunday equals two on any other day. Expenses grow.

Redistribution of a small number of staff from the other six days of the week onto Sunday will have a small impact on the overall cost of running a store. I will try to explain in layman's terms.

You have a shop which is open 8 hours on Mon-Sat. It needs 12 people to run at normal capacity. It needs 16 people to run at peak, and 6 to run without any restocking.

Current situation
Mon-Thurs 12 persons (384 man hours)
Fri 16 (128 hrs)
Sat 16 (@ 1.5x pay = 192 hrs)
Sun 0
Total = 704 hours pay

Now you can open for 6 hours on Sunday but at 2x the hourly pay, with less staff on Friday and Saturday... because those customers will arrive on a Sunday now.

Mon-Fri 12 persons (480 man hours)
Sat 12 (@ 1.5x pay = 144 hrs)
Sun 6 (@ 2x pay but 6 hour day = 72 hrs)
Total = 696 hours

The total is about the same. Is any of this getting through to you? Does it make any kind of sense?

Well, bluestupid, you clearly have not managed to notice that tar here thinks market forces should be permitted to make the decisions. I gave two prime examples on how marketforces fail to make right decisions.
Also, you again in your incredible inability to grasp things failed to realize that spending in Finland is far less than in USA, where you take debt to buy more junk. There, it is almost rule. Here, it is hobby of few idiots who are pitied by their surroundings.

Please tell that to the Gant and Boss wearing chaps I encounter every day, or the people who leave the supermarket with trollies piled high with ale, or the grannies at the legendary Hullut or 3+1 päivät.

There are many people here who have summer cottages, in most countries having a second home is the preserve of the super rich. There is as much consumerism here as in the rest of the western world, you are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

Stores cannot make profit unless they increase sales, and sales just do not increase much since people do not overspend.

Stores already make a profit. They are not going to tolerate making an overall loss over the week by staying open on Sundays, if they do, it will be clear that they will stay closed then.

That is also explanation for tar about logic. And tar, you might want to figure out WHY no large store is not open less hours than their competitors.

So, arse and tar. Tell me, why every large store is open basically maximum amount of hours they can? They could be open less... But they do not. So where is this "they can choose not to"-option if they cannot use it?

For shops that choose to open / not open... well I agree, it seems the big ones are open as much as the law allows, but that is a loaded question. You are excluding the possibility that they stay open longer hours so they can maximise the times when a customer can make a purchase. Shops make money when they are open, and they don't make money when they are closed. C'mon, even you should be able to understand that.

For those which are not open when they could be... K-Rauta and Starkki never seem to be open on a Sunday. Perhaps they are subject to different laws? (I don't know)

Our local shopping centre (Iso Karhu) did not open on summer Sundays in 2007. I can't remember the exact reason, but IIRC it was to do with getting enough of the shops to open (It contains mainly small shops with 2-3 staff). This Summer they opened on Sundays again.

Few of the smaller shops, jewellers, opticians out here ever open on Sundays

Our local Pentik is never open on Sundays, which is a mystery, as it is packed with customers every Saturday, but you can see even in branches of the same chain opening hours vary wildly.

Out of interest ... tell me have you ever bought something from an R-kioski or gas station when you had run out or come back late from a trip?

[EP]

There are many people here who have summer cottages, in most countries having a second home is the preserve of the super rich.

Summer cottage is not consumerism. It is a way to be. Often very necessary.

[the_student]

Stores cannot make profit unless they increase sales, and sales just do not increase much since people do not overspend.

You sure are a ranting idiot with no understanding of Economics.

Sales and revenues by itself have little to do with profit. You can sell until you are blue on the face and still lose money. Profit happens only when revenues exceed the accounting cost the firm. (i.e margins)

[sinikala]

There are many people here who have summer cottages, in most countries having a second home is the preserve of the super rich.

Summer cottage is not consumerism.

Yes dear, if you say so.

</pats EP patronisingly on head>

Of course nobody ever bought a summer cottage, people throw them at you as you walk down the street.

It is a way to be. Often very necessary.

Thanks, I'll use that one to justify my next holiday and flat screen telly.

Nods to self sagely.

[EP]

Well, my guess is that without summer cottages we would have even more mental health problems.

Of course nobody ever bought a summer cottage, people throw them at you as you walk down the street.

Well often almost that. A big chunk of the cottages are inherited.

[kay30]

There are many people here who have summer cottages, in most countries having a second home is the preserve of the super rich. There is as much consumerism here as in the rest of the western world, you are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

THANK YOU for mentioning this. I am so tired of hearing about how non-consumer and environmentally-friendly Finland is while most people are driving to their summer cabins every weekend (many times using a power boat when there) during the summer and firing up the old wood burning sauna (and of course the electric sauna at home). Inherited or not, it still takes resources to get there and upkeep. And the fact that many people who have a cabin can't "dream" of life without one should tell you that, yeah, there is a healthy consumerism here. It's just slightly disguised and socially sanctioned.

[Upphew]

There are many people here who have summer cottages, in most countries having a second home is the preserve of the super rich.

Summer cottage is not consumerism.

Yes dear, if you say so.

</pats EP patronisingly on head>

Of course nobody ever bought a summer cottage, people throw them at you as you walk down the street.

It is a way to be. Often very necessary.

Thanks, I'll use that one to justify my next holiday and flat screen telly.

Nods to self sagely.

sage this: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_s ... -of-houses ?

[Tiwaz]

Stores cannot make profit unless they increase sales, and sales just do not increase much since people do not overspend.

You sure are a ranting idiot with no understanding of Economics.

Sales and revenues by itself have little to do with profit. You can sell until you are blue on the face and still lose money. Profit happens only when revenues exceed the accounting cost the firm. (i.e margins)

And you are just genius on the other hand.

That is the whole point. If sales do not go up but expenses go.... Less or no profit! Simple enough for your mind to grasp?
Now, in situation where store must remain competitive and accept extra costs... How will they avoid reduced income? Go on... Strain those few braincells...

Yes, they RAISE THE PRICES!


And bluearse... Tell me, in your attempted math. Have you taken into account that they already have absolute minimums for each day working? How do you know those customers will arrive on sunday?

I thought whole point was to increase sales for stores... So they have to have same staff as they did before to make sure they are not understaffed rest of the days...
If they do not presume they increase sales, why would they bother? Big companies of course desperately want to change current situation. They want to kill off the small stores to weed out competition.

To open up whole field for huge stores to dominate, at which point they really can ask what they want and customer will pay. Not just on sunday, but all week. Price increase is what I do not want to see and that is most definitely result of free time to open, because as you said... They do not want to make less profit! Instead of giving competitive edge to competitor, they can slowly start raising the prices.
It's not like it has not taken place already (with euro coming and causing difficulties with people grasping actual costs back in time). Visited Ideapark yesterday. One icecream with one flavor and single large coffee... Nearly 5 euros. Ok, been a long time since loss of FIM, but I think I would remember if I had to pay around 30FIM for such set back in then.

And reduction in competition which would force stores to put effort to their business.

I have on one day bought something from gas station because stores were not open. And that was on some kind of major holiday which I cannot remember. Can't drink coffee without milk and cannot live long without coffee unless I desire bad headache. Rest of the time my family, like most of them, handle shopping on the way home from work. Sunday shopping is rare case when we do not have time on other days. Or during christmas when you more or less have to or face wrath of family because you did not buy something nice for them.

By the way, summer cottages are not big thing for sunday shopping either. If they go to cottage for weekend, they pack up when they leave. Not when they come back.

[rinso]

And bluearse... Tell me, in your attempted math. Have you taken into account that they already have absolute minimums for each day working? How do you know those customers will arrive on sunday?

I thought whole point was to increase sales for stores... So they have to have same staff as they did before to make sure they are not understaffed rest of the days...

There is one solution: reduce the number/working hours of older/more experienced employees and replace them with school kids for minimum wages.

[Tiwaz]

And bluearse... Tell me, in your attempted math. Have you taken into account that they already have absolute minimums for each day working? How do you know those customers will arrive on sunday?

I thought whole point was to increase sales for stores... So they have to have same staff as they did before to make sure they are not understaffed rest of the days...

There is one solution: reduce the number/working hours of older/more experienced employees and replace them with school kids for minimum wages.

True. That would work. You have sold the sunday openings to me on this argument. No price increase for me for service I do not need. Too bad for workers laid off though.

[Karhunkoski]

Thing is Tiswas, you can't totally blame the demise of smaller shops on the existence of the bigger ones. However you can aportion some of the blame at the door of greedy, mean Finnish consumers who are so tight-fisted that they would drive 50Km to save a cent on their petrol. The small shops went out of business because people didn't use them. When I lived out in the sticks we (us and practically the whole village) made sure we spent at least some money in the local general store, even though prices were higher than in the S Market we had just visited! But we knew that it was good to have a local shop nearby. The little shop is still running, so it proves that small shops can survive if the locals have the right attitude. Sefishness and greed are the real culprits.

[Rabs]

.. But we knew that it was good to have a local shop nearby. The little shop is still running, so it proves that small shops can survive if the locals have the right attitude. ....

humans are not rational all the time... it is even assumed in economic theories... and it baffles people like Mr Tiwaz

[sinikala]

Well, my guess is that without summer cottages we would have even more mental health problems.

Is that supposed to be some kind of justification?

As a counter argument, I propose to you that without the possibility to retreat introspectively to a bolt-hole in the middle of nowhere to drink themselves into oblivion, there may even be less mental health problems. People would be forced to stick around with the general population, be more social and confront their problems.

Of course nobody ever bought a summer cottage, people throw them at you as you walk down the street.

Well often almost that. A big chunk of the cottages are inherited.

With respect, so too are first homes, and that is true in most countries. When my folks pass on my brothers and I will get their house. Summer cottages are bought and sold. IIRC people on here have built them.

You are cherry picking. Spending your money on paint, wallpaper or a new bed at the summer cottage or a new lawnmower = consumerism. The fixtures, fittings, furnishings, decoration and upkeep not to mention heating of a second home? Just because there is no flat screen bolted to the wall, doesn't mean it isn't consumerism.

My wife's family is pretty typical with their summer cottage, they buy and consume things there = consumerism.
I'm guessing that you have never thought of a summer cottage in those terms, and are slightly uncomfortable with the idea.

[sinikala]

mean Finnish consumers who are so tight-fisted that they would drive 50Km to save a cent on their petrol.

I have met some people who will drive quite a way to buy "cheaper" petrol, but don't bother to calculate how much they are spending on petrol to get there and back.

For my wife's car with a 60litre tank that drives 7l/100km... (it will go 14km on 1 litre), 1 litre will get you 7 km there and 7km back.

If fuel is €1.20 per litre and I buy 60 litres (€72) ... it means that if I am willing to drive a 14km round trip (using 1litre or €1.20) then the fuel needs to be €0.02 / litre cheaper for me to break even.

For a 50 km round trip the break even would be if the fuel were a little over €0,07 / litre cheaper.

I bet Tizwaz is now feeling a bit embarrassed at all the money he's wasted over the years.