Living on 3000 euro/mo?

[biscayne]

Yeah, I would be a bit sceptical about the idea that 3000e in Hki is a "comfortable" salary for 2 to live on. If this is the before tax amount, then as another user said, with the debt repayment you'll be left with a bit less than 2000e per month. If you want a 2 bed in Hki, you're talking 700e up dependending on the type of flat and where it is located. I'd say a minium of 450e per month for food, you might have transport costs if you don't rent within walking or cycling distance, say 100e to 150e per month for that. There won't be much left over. Going out costs a lot in Hki, and if your wife is coming, she'll need to go on a Finnish course, that costs, plus you'll both need bits and pieces, you know how things add up. You will get by, but I doubt you'll save much. The wife can't stay locked in the apartment all day and just going out for a daily coffee can really add up in the city centre, and I doubt she'll want to frequent the petrol station cafes where the locals often go. (always amused me, that did). It's true that the farther out you go the cheaper the rent, but the transport costs increase, and the ex-pat groups etc that your wife might get involved with while you are working generally are centred around town, which means transport for her too.

[enk]

perhaps we spend €25-€30 per day for two of us. €150-€180 per week?

30 euro per day for food for 2 ? We spend 15- 20 euro a day for 5, including food for 2 teenage boys and a 9 year old with hollow legs!

I was going to say the same thing Except for in my case it's only 4, 2 of which are bottomless pits and I spend
less than that 15 euros a day.

And for the original poster, it's more than doable as long as your fiancee doesn't go
blowing all her money on American food when she's homesick. I'm currently managing
on less than half that in Espoo with 3 kids with "hockey habits". Plus I'm paying
off debt with that money.

-enk

[ndbowman]

THANKS SO MUCH! You guys are so incredibly helpful, this is so nice to read everyone's feedback. I'm still considering the job; actually just talked with the fiance today, and I think she's going to stay State-side for at least the first year of my contract. She's got gainful employment here in the US (we live in Michigan, so that's pretty rare given the current economy *wink*) and doesn't want to just walk away from her career just yet. She's also got a pretty large family and will want some time to say goodbye; on my end, I'm ready to come to Finland tomorrow!

Trying to negotiate a bit higher salary, but it seems like that we could make this work even on the current salary offer. Of course it'd be easier if she could eventually find work - she works as a journalist - but I'm very excited at the possibility of coming to Finland, even if I'm on my own for the first year. Could be fun?

I'm eager to read more feedback on the OP from anyone still following this thread, this is so very helpful. =)

[ndbowman]

BTW: I'm a hockey FANATIC, so I'm pretty excited to see that there are two professional teams in Helsinki. I have to ask - and maybe I'll start a new thread for this one - who should I be cheering for?

And I wonder if the NHL gets any coverage in Finland? [I'll start a new thread...]

[jas_rho]

THANKS SO MUCH! You guys are so incredibly helpful, this is so nice to read everyone's feedback. I'm still considering the job; actually just talked with the fiance today, and I think she's going to stay State-side for at least the first year of my contract. She's got gainful employment here in the US (we live in Michigan, so that's pretty rare given the current economy *wink*) and doesn't want to just walk away from her career just yet. She's also got a pretty large family and will want some time to say goodbye; on my end, I'm ready to come to Finland tomorrow!

Trying to negotiate a bit higher salary, but it seems like that we could make this work even on the current salary offer. Of course it'd be easier if she could eventually find work - she works as a journalist - but I'm very excited at the possibility of coming to Finland, even if I'm on my own for the first year. Could be fun?

I'm eager to read more feedback on the OP from anyone still following this thread, this is so very helpful. =)

Besides trying to get more salary you could also try getting them to throw in things instead of money. Like your apartment for example, they could get you that and pay the rent for you. Smaller things that then come to mind would be to get them to pay your monthly bus/metro/train pass, for them to provide you with a phone and pay the bill (puhelinetu), and lunch coupons (lounasseteli) on top of your salary not taken out of it. (Don't worry, those lunch coupons aren't food stamps companies here in Finland offer those where, for example, they have a value of 8€ in any restaurant but they take 5€ out from your salary and you aren't taxed on that either <-- just and example, there are different values of the coupons etc.) But you could also request that you would get these lunch coupons on top of the 3000€.

[EP]

she works as a journalist

In that case she could try freelancing (if she comes). An English-language journalist has quite a wide field to play. A bit different from a Finnish-writing one.

Does Helsinki really have only two professional hockey teams? What are those? Jokerit and what else? Anyway, there is akways also Espoo Blues.

[Upphew]

Does Helsinki really have only two professional hockey teams? What are those? Jokerit and what else? Anyway, there is akways also Espoo Blues.

Helsingfors Idrotts Föreningen Kamraterna

[umit]

I don't want to scare you, but if 3000 per month salary is before tax, then I'm not too optimistic that you two would live a very comfortable life in Helsinki.

Other posters are quite optimistic about the rents, too. If you are looking for a 2-bedroom furnished flat, you should think about paying 1000+ euro/month. Other expenses are completely relative to your life style. Eating and drinking out is expensive! Actually, almost everything is more expensive than the states.

[AlexInHelsinki]

?

[sinikala]

perhaps we spend €25-€30 per day for two of us. €150-€180 per week?

30 euro per day for food for 2 ? We spend 15- 20 euro a day for 5, including food for 2 teenage boys and a 9 year old with hollow legs!

I was going to say the same thing Except for in my case it's only 4, 2 of which are bottomless pits and I spend
less than that 15 euros a day.

I'm sure we could eat for a lot less, but we eat a lot of fresh veg, and decent fresh veg is expensive here. Finnish tomatoes are €5.5kg at the moment, a decent lettuce €1.50-€1.75, €2 for a bit of fresh spinach, €2 for a pack of mung bean sprouts, peppers €5/kg.

I also try to buy eko / luomu /fair trade products when available e.g. 0.5kg of fairtrade sugar is double the price of a 1kg of the bleached stuff (4x the €/kg). Luomu eggs are what?... €2.5 for half a dozen vs. €1 for the battery equivalent.

It soon adds up. A basket with 10 items of fruit and veg is almost always €20, before you go for milk, juice, eggs. Maybe €25-30 is overestimating it, but we don't budget our food costs, maybe better to say €20-30 per day for 2.

It may be offensive to some, but I'd say that €250-350 per month per person for food, is acceptable to quite a lot of people. It's well under half the cost of eating out.

We don't drink, nor do we smoke, we own our modest cars (I've been driving the same one for 10 years) and since I gave up shooting crack into my eyeballs food, is probably our main luxury (the crack bit was a joke).

[Karhunkoski]

Good crack.

I'm with Fishy on this, we're also DINKs and probably spend €400+ a month on supermarket food for two in the home, and we eat outside of the home for most weekday lunches and will sometimes eat out at weekends. Of course we could do it on less by eating lauantaimakkara and spuds every day, but not having the luxury of kids, we have to find our happiness in other ways. Good quality and healthy food sometimes costs, and choosing this luxury over drinking and smoking is certainly nothing to be ashamed of.

[enk]

A thing fishy, why on earth do you pay for sprouts? They're easier than sin to make and
a heck of a lot cheaper (not to mention better on the environment considering the
nasty little tub they come in). And you don't have to limit yourself to just mung bean
sprouts that way either!

One way a lot of people bring down the cost of their veg is to supplement it with
stuff from the forest. We eat a lot of mushrooms, berries, etc. that we pick
when I'm trying to wear out my kids and get in some exercise. And if the berries
don't make it out of the forest because the kids have eaten them, oh well
In addition to that, we grow a lot of lettuces, cherry tomatoes, etc. in the summer
on the balcony (I wish I had a gardening plot!); this year I'm hoping to get the
other side of the balcony free of the boxes there and run some cucumber
vines up the trellis the previous tenants left.

If you've got the money to pay for ridiculous expensive tomatoes because they're not
in season, then go for it. I frankly don't, so we don't eat them. I have to make do with
the money I have coming in right now, so I do. I don't drink, smoke (or do crack either ),
which helps keep the costs down. And because I can't afford to eat out, I don't go through money
eating at ridiculously priced restaurants either. But I also don't miss it (ok, I'll give that
I miss Satkar and Korea House ), because if I did, then I'd just be miserable all the time.

So if you really want to cut back on expenses (not even because you have to), you can
start by asking yourself some important questions like why you're not eating what's in
season (root veggies and easily stored fruit like apples). And why you've transferred a non-Finnish
vegetarian way of eating to Finland? How can your shake yourself out of the shopping pattern you're in
to make meals more inexpensive without sacrificing taste or nutrition? How can you use the stuff
you're throwing away (leftovers, peels, etc.)? This is pretty important for all of us to think about, no matter
what. And not even my way of doing this is perfect; I go through the same process a couple of
times a year.

For me, the killer is milk. My kids drink tons of it if it's in the house, so I decided to buy exactly
1 1,5 l carton of milk a day. If it's gone by the end of the day, oh well, drink water, piimä or
(American) lemonade (which they make themselves out of sugar, water and lemon juice). That and my
kids like to feed the neighbourhood

-enk

[sinikala]

A thing fishy, why on earth do you pay for sprouts? They're easier than sin to make and
a heck of a lot cheaper (not to mention better on the environment considering the
nasty little tub they come in). And you don't have to limit yourself to just mung bean
sprouts that way either!

Sprouts or the sprouter you keep them in have to be rinsed & turned daily or they rot and stink your apartment out.. sure, a good project for 8 year old kids. Me, I prefer the convenience of deciding tonight it´s a stir fry and coughing up my €2... not planning it 8 days in advance.

The nasty little plastic tub goes into Energiajäte so it´s not wasted.

If you've got the money to pay for ridiculous expensive tomatoes because they're not
in season, then go for it.

I do, thanks for your permission!

So if you really want to cut back on expenses (not even because you have to), you can
start by asking yourself some important questions like why you're not eating what's in
season (root veggies and easily stored fruit like apples).

My point seems not to get through, I don´t want to cut back. I prefer to cough up a few extra euros and eat stuff I like.

As an aside... nothing is in season at the moment, root veg is cheap as it has a longer shelf life than most fresh produce, it´s cheap to produce and cheap to store... doesn´t taste very good and tend to be starchy and not that healthy.

And why you've transferred a non-Finnish vegetarian way of eating to Finland?

That one´s pretty easy ... I´m not Finnish, never have been, never will be.

How can your shake yourself out of the shopping pattern you're in
to make meals more inexpensive without sacrificing taste or nutrition?

Again, I have a nagging sense that my point is not getting through. I don´t want to make meals less expensive, I´ve been vegetarian for 15 years and have a fair idea of the importance of good ingredients for taste and how enjoyable it makes the food.

How can you use the stuff you're throwing away (leftovers, peels, etc.)? This is pretty important for all of us to think about, no matter what.

We don´t do throw any food away, we either cook double and freeze half or eat it all. Peelings either get composted or if the rabbit is interested... she gets them.

The main reason I posted our daily food spend was...

I'd say I have pretty meager tastes, but I want to live as a professional, and not as a graduate student.

I think I understand where the guy´s coming from ... I did my time as a (relatively) impoverished Ph.D. student in the ´90s on the equivalent of €1000 per month. Not everyone wants to live that way forever. For the OP ... €3000 per month or less if he has to pay loans off ... would not allow him and his wife to live like professionals in Hki.

[chickensexer]

To the OP.

3000/month before tax, minus your loan payment? If I were you I wouldn't seriously consider whether to come or not. Ok, you said your fiancee will not join you for the first year. In which case I would say - go ahead and come, just for the experience, and after one year she will not need to join you because likely you'll be redy to go back home anyway.

By the way, 3000/month before tax is statistically average for a male in Finland. So basicaly whatever life you'll have here with that money would be pretty indicative of "average Finnish life" along the way.

Ok, let's break it down. 3000 before tax is about 2200 after tax. Minus your debt = 1700 after tax.

Rent. If you'll be by yourself I assume one bedroom is just enough? Ok, an average 1 bedroom somewhere off the city center Helsinki would be 700-800, average, meaning the size is about 450sq.feet. So, you can see what that other poster ment by "walk in closet". You can get a bigger one, at a higher cost of course. This is UNfurnished price by the way. Of course you can drag few pieces of cheap crap from somewhere to get by for one year. Price of furnished one? They re hard to find and very expensive, add another 300-400.

But anyway, let's go with average unfurnished, 750. 1700-750=950.
Public transport - if you'l stay within administrative limits of Helsinki, it's about - how much now guys? - 50 or so? If you are considered a student then half the price. But let's be on the safe side, 50. So, now you are left with 900.

Prices for restaurants you know alredy. Please remember that you will be disappointed to NOT have free refills on your soda, to NOT have "dessert on the house" in case of any screw-ups and generally less variaty and... Well, yes, an average "working lunch" is about 8eur. It's eadible. In most cases. Nothing beyond. Ok, let's throw in another price comparison - a fastfood meal is 7-8eur. And by the way sometimes that "fast" food meal takes up to 15min to get...

Also, please note that basically ANY consumer goods item you'd take is cheaper AND wider choice AND usually "sturdier" quality in the States. And when it comes to appliances and electronics the price diiference is even higher I would say.

ALL the services are also quite expensive - let's say man's haircut around 25-30eur? Unless you'll go to hairdressing students or something like that. Another thing is that it would take you a while to get used to - if at all - local style of any service that would strike you as rude or clumsy... And there are no "bag boys" at supermarket cashiers, so you'll have to bag all your groceries by yourself AND pay 20eurocents for a plastic bag. But they are solid enough to be used as garbage bags so at least you'll save on that.

And last but not least: some has mentioned already that variations of income/lifestyle are not that great in Finland. So if you think something like "ok, I see, seems pretty tough but it's just the beginning, I'll get raises and stuff and things will progress to a better stage" - sorry, they won't. Well, not considerbly at least.

All in all, I'd say if you just want interesting experience for a year or so, alone, (or if your financial situation is really tough there now) - give it a try. Otherwise - I wouldn't bother.

[Mook]

1) Dollars are not nearly equal to Euros
2) if the OP is at a university, then there's a fair chance of getting accomodation from them. Around 200 Euro's a month gets a room in a shared apartment. 400ish gets a 2 room apartment
3) transport costs are tax-deductible...

So basically, if the university provides accomodation, then the money should be OK!