English language & IT

m.a.x.i.m · Post by **m.a.x.i.m** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:45 pm

Hi guys, I have a stupid dream, to wit : move to Finland. I'm going to try find a job in Finland, but here can be one problem(at least), I'm afraid that my current English skills are not enough. I know, there are a lot of English natives on the forum, so the question is - what is, in your opinion, acceptable English level for the position in the IT area (Software Development, nothing related with public orating ) ? I see very often in the position requirements - Fluent English is a must / essential / required and so on , but what does it mean exactly? And another question, not related with English, what's the situation on the IT market? Is everything bad or very bad? Does it make sense to try find a job now or will be better to wait a bit? Thanks in advance.

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irnbru · Post by **irnbru** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:09 pm

m.a.x.i.m wrote:what's the situation on the IT market? Is everything bad or very bad?

Very bad at the moment. In 2007 there were loads of open positions now there are very few. Consequence of the financial crisis.

m.a.x.i.m · Post by **m.a.x.i.m** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:21 am

irnbru wrote:Very bad at the moment. In 2007 there were loads of open positions now there are very few. Consequence of the financial crisis.

Indeed, monster.fi can find only 15 vacancies for keyword "java" for this month and most of them are even not related with development. I understand that Finland is quite small country, and number of open positions cannot be like in the US, but if we have a look on countries with the same population/economic development (Norway, Austria, Sweden, Switzerland, New Zealand, Moscow/Saint-Petersburg) we find that the number of open positions in Finland are extremely low compare to these countries. Interesting why?

Tiwaz · Post by **Tiwaz** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:17 am

Could be several reasons. For one, getting rid of guy you hired is very difficult in Finland. And with different kinds of expenses added on top of salary workers are expensive.

To top it off, little over a decade ago we had last big recession in Finland. Employers are still wary, to point of being hysterical, about hiring people. As long as they can get by with the staff they have, or preferably with less, they do so.

As for your English skills. Basically you speak zero Finnish and poor English (by your own account).
In IT, it is possible to survive with one or another of those two. But one you have left has to be extremely fluent. Usually employer wants both at fluent level.

So....
Tell me, from eyes of potential employer... What you have to offer them to counter the expenses and trouble they face if they were to hire you?

m.a.x.i.m · Post by **m.a.x.i.m** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:46 pm

Tiwaz wrote:Tell me, from eyes of potential employer... What you have to offer them to counter the expenses and trouble they face if they were to hire you?

That’s an extremely good question. I thought a lot about this, why my candidacy can be interesting for Finnish employers and, to be honest, I didn’t find solid reasons, but I’m working on it

. Anyway let me explain. First of all a few words about myself: I’m a Java Software Developer; I have about 8 years of experience in the industry (mostly server-side development). One year ago it was enough, I believe, to get a job offer from Nokia, at least I had chances. But now, taking into account current economical situation and Finnish employer’s mentality, the task is becoming very hard. Now I see two things I have to improve, namely, English skills and also it would be very useful if I will possess some rare skills(I saw here in the forum that someone is looking for a Fortran Developer, so may be I also have to refresh my knowledge of PL/I, Fortran and other useless sh.ts). Concerning English, I’m doing my best, but the language drives me crazy, especially I hate articles (a/an/the) and tenses

. By the way, is it true that Finns speak English better than the English? About second point, I’m going to create an open source project that I can show for potential employers.

And am I right in thinking that it doesn’t make sense to learn Finnish living outside the country, because it will be just a waste of time if you are not a linguistic genius?

So guys, if you have any idea how I can increase my chances to find a Finnish employer, please don’t hesitate to tell me.

irnbru · Post by **irnbru** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:50 pm

m.a.x.i.m wrote:Interesting why?

No one wants to take risks when they know the economy is bad. It's no different than any other country at the moment.

m.a.x.i.m wrote:One year ago it was enough, I believe, to get a job offer from Nokia, at least I had chances.

Maybe you haven't noticed. But in one year Nokia have lost market share to Apple and RIM. Also take into account millions of people with less disposable income recently and you can see why Nokia is making redundancies. Therefore they will not be hiring much at all apart from very specialist people one would imagine.

nsdh · Post by **nsdh** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:52 pm

I’m a Java Software Developer; I have about 8 years of experience in the industry (mostly server-side development).

I am Myself certified Java developer but the J2ee skilled people needs Finnish skills because
1. Mostly website will be in Finnish...English sites may get outsourced
2.Need Finnish skills to interact with customers.(requirement gathering etc)
3.There are plenty of Java developers in Finland...May be highest compared with any programming language.

J2me may help to get job here. I got in that field after done some projects. But market is very bad it push job seekers to settle down to very low salary, If we have doggy pursuit it may be possible.

-Deviprasad

irnbru · Post by **irnbru** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:41 pm

nsdh wrote:3.There are plenty of Java developers in Finland...May be highest compared with any programming language.

Very true. Try doing an IT degree here. 3-4 years of Java, Java and Java.

m.a.x.i.m · Post by **m.a.x.i.m** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:19 pm

irnbru wrote:Very true. Try doing an IT degree here. 3-4 years of Java, Java and Java.

Do you really think that degree from Finnish university is an extremely significant advantage? I thought working experience is more important, no? In any case, it’s not my case, because I don’t have 60-80K (2K per month x 3 years) euros for the education, moreover I already have master's degree in math.

irnbru · Post by **irnbru** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:12 pm

m.a.x.i.m wrote:Do you really think that degree from Finnish university is an extremely significant advantage? I thought working experience is more important, no? In any case, it’s not my case, because I don’t have 60-80K (2K per month x 3 years) euros for the education, moreover I already have master's degree in math.

No your masters in maths is enough. Doing another degree in Finland is probably pretty pointless. Although if you did an Msc in Computer Science at Helsinki university of technology like 90% of the other droids here you might have a better network.

BTW education is free here unless you do some weird corporate MBA thing.

m.a.x.i.m · Post by **m.a.x.i.m** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:28 pm

irnbru wrote:BTW education is free here unless you do some weird corporate MBA thing.

I know, but I have a family, so I have to rent an apartment. In Helsinki it will cost about 700-1000 Euros per moth, I think. + 700 for food + 200 for transport + etc. Frankly speaking, I don’t see reasons to move in Finland if the salary is less than 2500 after tax.

irnbru · Post by **irnbru** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:35 pm

m.a.x.i.m wrote:
irnbru wrote:BTW education is free here unless you do some weird corporate MBA thing.
I know, but I have a family, so I have to rent an apartment. In Helsinki it will cost about 700-1000 Euros per moth, I think. + 700 for food + 200 for transport + etc. Frankly speaking, I don’t see reasons to move in Finland if the salary is less than 2500 after tax.

Well you might get lucky. Hopefully people start hiring like they were a year or two again soon. With a masters in maths and 8 years J2EE you would have had no problem back then. You are still quite employable in Finland if your English is good (doesn't need to be amazing), regardless of your Finnish language skills of course as you know the problem is no one is hiring right now.

Tiwaz · Post by **Tiwaz** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:36 am

m.a.x.i.m wrote:
irnbru wrote:Very true. Try doing an IT degree here. 3-4 years of Java, Java and Java.
Do you really think that degree from Finnish university is an extremely significant advantage? I thought working experience is more important, no? In any case, it’s not my case, because I don’t have 60-80K (2K per month x 3 years) euros for the education, moreover I already have master's degree in math.

What cloudcastle salesman here fails to notice, is that your foreign master's degree is not necessarily recognized in Finland.

What you have to do is to have it recognized in Finnish system to open more doors. Some companies might be familiar enough with requirements for Master's degree in whatever school you got it from, but rest may assume you can get it from cereal box. (ever notice those advertisements from different "schools" advertising how you can buy grads from them in spam boxes?)

Experience is gold, but you have to be able to prove it. Most likely in case of applicant who claims such expertise but has no papers to support it, there will be request for some kind of proof. Often in form of program to be made on the go to fit certain criteria. Nothing major, but proof that you actually have some knowledge of things you claim.

Pursuivant · Post by **Pursuivant** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:17 am

And if you're good - they love to hire you. However they're very used to having engineers cheaply...

m.a.x.i.m · Post by **m.a.x.i.m** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:50 am

Tiwaz wrote: What cloudcastle salesman here fails to notice, is that your foreign master's degree is not necessarily recognized in Finland.

Experience is gold, but you have to be able to prove it. Most likely in case of applicant who claims such expertise but has no papers to support it, there will be request for some kind of proof. Often in form of program to be made on the go to fit certain criteria. Nothing major, but proof that you actually have some knowledge of things you claim.

Regarding the university, I believe there should not be problems.
But what the papers I have to provide for proving my experience? I have been working for big (about 30K employees worldwide) well-known IT Company for the last two years, I believe it’s going to help, but I have no idea what the papers you mean, references? And as I already said, I’m going to start an open source project, so an employer will be able to have a look on my code.

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