Working in English

[Pursuivant]

OK, so if you're disadvantaged so then you need to do double the work to do things other people do easily. We all might be disadvantaged but we don't make a number of it and go finding excuses. Whining is all people do in foreign countries, but here in Finland you work and you work harder and keep your whining to yourself.

[ajl]

Suggesting people make up excuses about a learning disorder, as handled in the earlier post, was
just offensive.

Complaining about whining, seems as commonplace as any original whining and really is just as
annoying. I used to think Americans were hard to beat in the offensive & complaining catagories,
but hey, I'm open to changing my opinion based on new information.

If we want to get back to the working subject line... I suggest people study/train in software
engineering. I know I considered that I would be more likely to get a job in Finland using English
when I chose that direction in the eighties. Hey, usenet whining then wasn't so much different from
web apps whining now, people just get to pick pretty fonts and use video clips to complain/whine.

[Pursuivant]

If you have a disability then using is as an excuse is doubly offensive to other people with a disability who grit their teeth and work hard and don't whine as they never were given a chance. A learning disability might be a reason for not learning but not an excuse to whine and expect pampering but hard work. If you cannot learn Finnish cry a river to all those kids battling with gendered pronouns, five declinations, sex changing accusatives and historical past tenses... we have to learn your language(s) so what do you think we gave as an excuse to not pass school? Its not like America where people are just too lazy ass pampered expecting a free lunch and pass school even without knowing how to read and write as that would hurt their feelings.

[paha_noita]

I don't feel I need to apologize for any of my remarks and stand behind them 100% and would say them to your face. I wasn't trying to knock you down or make you feel bad. So many people here come to complain and while this is a good place to vent they should be ready for the remarks that others can freely put here. I was just trying to say stick with it, keep trying, and don't give up, and you'll eventually be rewarded for it. If you would rather cry and complain more then like I said earlier, you've got a hard time to look forward to here with that kind of attitude, it ain't gonna be a walk in the park no matter how much you cry.

A little late, but let me just say I completely agree with you, and the simple fact that the OP feels offended by what you are (and everyone else is) saying just flabbergasts me. I found your short story of your first job in Finland to be extremely inspiring to me and I'm sure to others in a similar position as well. Coming to Finland with the intention of not even learning Finnish is pretty much disgusting and a huge insult to Finns and Finnish culture. Way to go completely disregarding the fact that you're in a different country with a different way of life. I just don't understand, why come all the way to Finland to work (and I'm assuming that because OP wants a job he plans to stay permanently??) if you don't want to be a part of the local culture? I don't care who has a "learning disability" or whatever, stay in your own damn country if you want to speak only English. Don't ever apologise for your remarks jas.

[Pursuivant]

"Eira High is active in preventing exclusion from education." Exclusion from education?

Well lets put it this way. Finland is very much "in the box" society - in everything including education. It goes by the gauss scale so if you're a bit in the slow end or the bright end you get into trouble as the school tries to "normify" you. It maybe explains how the education statistics are so good, but on the other hand its not taking into consideration talent or lack of it. Of course theres special needs help and what we called "surveillance classes" and the tendency to at least try to get smaller groups, but at the end of the day the "level-heading" permeates how you get grades. So lets take for example learning languages. Finnish teaching method is as Penelope said very "traditional" and it is guys - his guys isn't anything special in this aspect - who do badly in languages as its grammar grammar grammar and grammar learned by heart. So the nice quiet girls who rote their grammar get straight 10 grades. They don't question "why". Blokes usually concentrate instead of "der die das und akkusativ" in stuff like "du bist schön, gehen wir tantzen". So the teaching method ensures blokes (like me) get 6-7 grades in languages by default. My Finnish was 8 always... Gammar books I burned on a pyre as well as maths books passing only due to that year being extremely harsh (and ended up as doing accounting being number-blind). Now even you get the top grade student do they know - rather "can" they the language is a totally another question. It is said that Finns' can speak English, but will they speak it is another question - as girls are thinking of grammar and need to get the sentence correct and the blokes are sure when they open their mouth everyone will laugh and they get a minus point. Actually in secondary education "making presentations" is the biggest ordeal people face hence the demand for "adult education English" teachers wo teach people to... speak English, their grammer and spleddning might be on the spot.

So reflecting to this "boxing kids" mentality the Eira school takes in consideration the backgrounds of the students, and as its adult education it can concentrate on people in a different way, you don't have to coax people into behaving or understanding they need to work more on certain things to get pass the national curriculum thresholds. However the common school system doesn't have funds really to go through with this kind of approach in the system, so the kids there still get "mass-produced" - and yes, if you're say in your teens and drop into the system you can easily get excluded from education as you can't pass your levels to get into further education - and teenagers tend to have other interests than sweating their ass off on a school bench.

[Pursuivant]

Peter Hitchens argues that some children find it difficult to learn to read because of the trendy teaching methods (the "look and say, whole word" method, as opposed to the tried and tested "Kuh, Ah, Tuh, CAT" phonics method).

But thats because English is an illogical language. So I wonder if "dyslexia" means a different thing say in England, France and Portugal as say in Finland, Spain or Italy where you generally have one letter which has one sound. Not to then talk about China? How can you be dyslexic in Chinese? Missing strokes?

[Rosamunda]

Yes, dyslexia is difficult to define which is why most people refer to spectrum disorders. We are all on there somewhere and there is not really a threshold where you suddenly become clinically dyslexic. Personally (after many years bringing up my own children and teaching languages) I do think there is a condition that we can refer to as dyslexia. And quite possibly there are 10% of children who have it, that percentage does not astonish me. As I said already, we are all on the spectrum somewhere.

It is true that teachers are a problem. They are inadequately trained to disagnose children with learning diabilities and do not have the skills to adapt their teaching styles to help kids who learn "differently". I have no recent experience of teaching in the Uk, but certainly in Finland most kids have access to special education right through compulsory education and even in lukio. And clearly this partly explains why Finland does well in the PISA test. Over 98% of kids who leave school can read and write fluently. In the UK, IIRC, it is around 78%. Diagnosis is good in Finland (the first tests are carried out when the kids are still in päiväkoti) and those with problems are quickly given help, inside school.

Anyway, my comment was (as I stated on my post) out of context since I had not read the thread (and still haven't), neither was I commenting on education in the UK. I used the example of my own son as an anecdote to illustrate my comment and the quote about Eira school was from their website (not my words).

Hank makes a good point about what dyslexia means in different languages. I attended a conference in Budapest which addressed this issue. EG: The speaker (from the UK) suggested that dyslexics in Hungary probably have difficulty with the long length of words and understanding how to cut them up into lexical units (which could be a similar phenomenon in Finnish).

The Mail on Sunday article is mostly rubbish. Confusing dyslexia with IQ is just bull***t. There is no correlation between intelligence and dyslexia. Just as not all nerds wear glasses.

[micky-in-helsinki]

From number of VIEWS you can guess how desperate are people about different matters. At the moment WORKING IN ENGLISH is on the top.

[mrjimsfc]

In today's economy, if you're working as a foriegner in Finland, you better be the best there is in your job. If you're not, you will be looking for another job. As sad as it sounds, the job market has no time, place nor patience for anyone who is prevented (by dissability or anything else) from doing the very best work in the shortest possible time. If you don't (won't) speak Finnish, it's more difficult for your co-workers and it costs the company more money. If you have a dissability, it's more difficult for your co-workers (again) and it costs the company more money (again). When the company can't get enough money it closes down then you AND your co-workers all lose your jobs. If you want a job in Finland, be the best there is in that particular job! No excuses. No whining "but I have a disability". Just be better at your job than anyone else is. Simple!

[Rosamunda]

In today's economy, if you're working as a foriegner in Finland, you better be the best there is in your job. If you're not, you will be looking for another job. As sad as it sounds, the job market has no time, place nor patience for anyone who is prevented (by dissability or anything else) from doing the very best work in the shortest possible time.

OTOH, Finns start full-time employment later than citizens of other countries in the EU (and beyond) and they retire earlier than most (the average age for retirement is below 60 yrs I believe). Not to mention those that are half drunk on Monday mornings! So, I think many employers are more than happy with the productivity they get from foreigners (eg: the bus companies). I don't think this has anything to do with language.

Not speaking Finnish makes it almost impossible to find a job. But once they've found a job, I think most foreigners stand as good a chance as anyone else of keeping it.

[raamv]

So, I think many employers are more than happy with the productivity they get from foreigners (eg: the bus companies). I don't think this has anything to do with language.

Depends, This statement is pretty accurate upto a certain level of working in a company.
When it comes to middle management and executive levels, the standards are again different and difficult to understand.

Not speaking Finnish makes it almost impossible to find a job. But once they've found a job, I think most foreigners stand as good a chance as anyone else of keeping it.

Especially Now and in the next year or so. Even if found a job, the next year or so will be very tough as when it comes to layoffs, its obvious that Foreigners have some disadvantages, no matter whether companies want to admit it or not. Its just the way it works here..

[mrjimsfc]

Not to mention those that are half drunk on Monday mornings! So, I think many employers are more than happy with the productivity they get from foreigners (eg: the bus companies). I don't think this has anything to do with language. Not speaking Finnish makes it almost impossible to find a job. But once they've found a job, I think most foreigners stand as good a chance as anyone else of keeping it.

It's not too hard to be "the best" when your competition is a buncha drunks. Of course if they're all related to upper management, things change. Then, even being best isn't enough.

[sinikala]

The Mail on Sunday article is mostly rubbish. Confusing dyslexia with IQ is just bull***t. There is no correlation between intelligence and dyslexia. Just as not all nerds wear glasses.

Most nerds in Finland do wear glasses... I remember sitting in a meeting room with 25 other nerds, I was the only one with 20/20 (ok... 20/16).

There might not be a link between IQ and dyslexia, but there certainly is a link between lack of application and dyslexia.

I offer as an example a relative of mine, as intelligent as I, but had poor spelling, poor reading skills, poor handwriting, poor exam results and often reversed letters - in short all the usual symptoms. The major difference between this relative and I being that they titted around at school, didn't really try very hard (by their own admission) whilst I applied myself and titted around only when the work was done.

This seriously hampered their academic progress, and when they actually buckled down in their late teens, the spelling improved as did the handwriting and ability to pass exams - just that those skills which should have been picked up aged 5-8 were only acquired aged 16-18.

I'm sure there are some who really are genuine cases and suffer from forms of number or word blindness, but for a significant number, it's mainly a lack of application and focus. Diagnosing them as dyslexic is a kind of "get out of effort" free card, when a better answer might be ... "work harder you lazy cnut".

[Pursuivant]

Most nerds in Finland do wear glasses... I remember sitting in a meeting room with 25 other nerds, I was the only one with 20/20 (ok... 20/16).

They're just too cheap to get laser surgery.

[Rosamunda]

OK.... I am just opting out of this discussion as I cannot be arsed to discuss this subject with two blokes who (I guesss) have no kids, have never taught kids (I hope), and have no idea what they are talking about. Neither of you has any idea what dyslexia is, which is plainly obvious from the remarks you are making. What really makes me angry is that you have the arrogance to make a stand on this based on something you read in a trashy Sunday rag. Sad.

- dyslexic kids can learn to read if they are diagnosed early and given appropriate special ed and support but many of their other handicaps are more difficult to overcome
- dyslexic kids do not necessarily have bad handwriting, in fact many diagnosed dyslexics have remarkable graphic skills
- dyslexic kids are often good readers and "reversing the letters" is another urban myth that dates form the 70s, few dyslexics actually reverse their letters. The term "word blindness" hasn't been used since the 80s either.
etc etc etc

Anyway, you are obviously not the kind who are actually willing to have a discussion, so I see little point in trying to explain the reasons why I disagree with you both and with the Sunday Mail (in fact I agree with come of Prof Elliott's remarks but not the ones you guys choose to quote).

Fortunately the people who think as you (and the Sunday Mail) do are few and far between in this country. Which again is maybe one of the reasons why Finland has far higher rates of literacy and lower rates of both truancy and juvenile crime than the UK.