Working in English

[Pursuivant]

Yes but we still got chavs despite all the education efforts. Does Prof. Elliot have anything in the back pocket to get the country de-chavved?

[sinikala]

OK.... I am just opting out of this discussion as I cannot be arsed to discuss this subject with two blokes who (I guesss) have no kids, have never taught kids (I hope), and have no idea what they are talking about. Neither of you has any idea what dyslexia is, which is plainly obvious from the remarks you are making.

Perhaps wasting my time typing this after you've spat your dummy. As I understand it, few psychologists or educational experts have any clear explanation of what dyslexia is, let alone what causes it, so we are in good company.

What really makes me angry is that you have the arrogance to make a stand on this based on something you read in a trashy Sunday rag. Sad.

It's pretty clear that you are angry. I have no idea to which Sunday rag you refer.

From a personal perspective I have taught few kids in recent years. And most of my teaching experience is with reasonably able adults - undergraduates whilst I was a postgrad, and for the last decade my "teaching" has been more like supervision - postgrads year round and undergrads during the summer.

- dyslexic kids can learn to read if they are diagnosed early and given appropriate special ed and support but many of their other handicaps are more difficult to overcome
- dyslexic kids do not necessarily have bad handwriting, in fact many diagnosed dyslexics have remarkable graphic skills
- dyslexic kids are often good readers and "reversing the letters" is another urban myth that dates form the 70s, few dyslexics actually reverse their letters. The term "word blindness" hasn't been used since the 80s either.
etc etc etc

Dyslexic kids can learn to read? You jest.

To call a minor learning difficulty a handicap is insulting to those with real handicaps.

I've seen reversed writing, it was a while ago and usually b's for d's IIRC, so I am now a little surprised to learn that something I've seen is actually an urban myth, thanks for clearing that up.

It seems "Word blindness" has been replaced by some psychobabble term; "developmental childhood aphasia" perhaps?

Anyway, you are obviously not the kind who are actually willing to have a discussion

That would make two of us.

Fortunately the people who think as you (and the Sunday Mail) do are few and far between in this country. Which again is maybe one of the reasons why Finland has far higher rates of literacy and lower rates of both truancy and juvenile crime than the UK.

Please explain what would be the link between my opinion and the relative rates of literacy, truancy?! and juvenile crime?!! in the UK and Finland?

In conclusion - meh.

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

Fortunately the people who think as you (and the Sunday Mail) do are few and far between in this country. Which again is maybe one of the reasons why Finland has far higher rates of literacy and lower rates of both truancy and juvenile crime than the UK.

And maybe it's partially due to having a phonetic language and a homogenous and conformist society? Add to that a school system that doesn't allow people to fail, awards grades for nothing, as we all need to be the same in our little socialist paradise.

[EP]

awards grades for nothing,

Try to pass the matriculation exam Bubba.

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

Don't bother EP.

[Tiwaz]

Not to mention those that are half drunk on Monday mornings! So, I think many employers are more than happy with the productivity they get from foreigners (eg: the bus companies). I don't think this has anything to do with language.

Of course it has nothing to do with language. Because in Finland, not speaking Finnish is not just accepted, it is a virtue! After all, why would it be found necessary for companies, eg the bus companies, to presume that their employee is able to communicate with over 90% of people living in this country.

As for those "half drunk on Monday mornings"-people... I wonder where you find them. I have not found single such person in my life anywhere.

I'll give you a hint, people drink on friday evening/saturday and spend sunday suffering from hangover. And get back to work on monday with little to no ill effects.

[Pursuivant]

As for those "half drunk on Monday mornings"-people...

Yes I'm usually as a lord on Mondays... Tuesdays are a bit wobbly...

[Rosamunda]

Fortunately the people who think as you (and the Sunday Mail) do are few and far between in this country. Which again is maybe one of the reasons why Finland has far higher rates of literacy and lower rates of both truancy and juvenile crime than the UK.

And maybe it's partially due to having a phonetic language and a homogenous and conformist society?

Yes, they are also reasons. I didn't say otherwise.
I would also add that the highest achievers in the UK are Asian boys and the lowest achievers are white boys (who have lower SATS results than Afro-caribbean girls). I suggest you browse the Mail on Sunday for the stats on that.

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

And maybe it's partially due to having a phonetic language and a homogenous and conformist society?

Yes, they are also reasons. I didn't say otherwise.
I would also add that the highest achievers in the UK are Asian boys and the lowest achievers are white boys (who have lower SATS results than Afro-caribbean girls). I suggest you browse the Mail on Sunday for the stats on that.[/quote]

Err....Don't tar me with that same brush. I don't read the right wing tabloids...(but I do read the Sunday Sport).

(actually I thought it was asian girls...but I haven't read about that issue for many years).

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

But you're not looking at the whole picture...Firstly, which Asians? There's a bit of a difference between, Pakistanis, Indians, chinese etc etc...RACIST!!!! Also I think the achievement of Asians (?) is more about their own culture and the parents being very demanding....blah, blah, blah....and litle to do with the UK school system or the language...

(the interesting thing about the Asians is that many do very poorly, and some do very well at school and you can seperate this into religion, country, region, there's a big thing in my home town between the 'Karachi Pakis' Vs the country bumpkins etc etc - But I guess when you take an average it all smooths out.)

[Rosamunda]

Honestly, Penelope, you should get yourself IQ-tested. You doubt my qualifications to comment on the subject, but then go on to say how your opinions cancel out those of Professor Elliott after 30 years of studying the subject of dyslexia.

I couldn't care a sh*t what my IQ is.... I don't have time to do crosswords or Sudoku either, and I'm not even too good at assembling flat-pack furniture. I never said my opinions cancel those of Prof Elliott, in fact I think I said I agree with much of what he says (eg: phonemic awareness can help ALL kids to learn to read). My own opinion is that poor reading skills are just a one of many symptoms of (what is commonly referred to as) dyslexia. Not all dyslexic kids are unable to read, just as not all kids who can't read are dyslexics.

Your comments on dyslexic kids just show they are not dyslexic. If they can learn to read, then they are not dyslexic. Whether they struggled with the UK's "whole word, don't spell the word out letter by letter" approach to teaching literacy is a subject you chose not to address. We have moved from almost universal literacy to a situation where 20% (and arguably the figure is higher) leave school without the ability to read properly.

My kids have never been schooled in the UK (I left the UK in 1981, well before I had kids). My eldest (who is dyslexic) went to Ecole Maternelle and Ecole Primaire in France where the preferred reading method was "semi-globale". As he was unable to memorise words and learn them this way and he was "sent" to see a pediatrician who then referred him to an orthophoniste who taught him to read (outside school) using phonemic awareness methods. That was in 1999. Ten years later he (aged 17) is still receiving remedial support (in Finland) to help him with his reading comprehension and writing, even though he has consistently scored well (not brilliantly) in many subjects (including GCSE's). His most "visible" problem is his speech. He is unable to articulate his ideas into coherent connected speech ie: he cannot finish sentences and speaks as if he is uttering several phrases simultaneously (this is also apparent in his writing). It is very difficult to follow his lines of thought. He can read fluently and enjoys reading. He makes few spelling mistakes when he writes but occasionally there are anomalies which are inconsistent with his reading age. He may use "with" and "whith" in the same sentence and yet seems to have no problems spelling the names of complex chemical compounds that I cannot even pronounce (his elective "long" subjects for lukio are maths, physics, chemistry and French).

Actually, many university graduates struggle with English too. I suppose your explanations would involve consumption of food containing E-numbers, living next to nuclear power stations and radio interference from mobile phones, among the stupidities often advanced in conversations like this in the UK.

My husband works for a mobile phone network company so I won't blame them but I'll admit to the E-numbers. We try to avoid those. No, I think most university students in the UK are simply victims of a confused education system that prioritises politics above all else. However, I also believe that splitting infinitives is OK and that sentences can end with a preposition... Could it be that it's not the university students who are struggling with English but rather, their academic superiors who are struggling to adapt their language to an increasingly heterogenous student population? ( <--- rhetorical question).

As for Finland, shall I say this s-l-o-w-ly as Penny has learning difficulties? The Finnish language is more (not completely) phonetically spelled, and so it is not surprising that claimed dyslexia levels would be lower. At the very least, Penny could share her knowledge and let us know whether the "whole word" non-phonic method of literacy teaching has arrived in Finland? I wait with bated breath.

I do not know how levels of dyslexia in Finland compare to those in the UK. I don't think anyone has "claimed" that the levels here are lower. It is not the orthographic complexity of the language which determines how many dyslexic kids are born each year. Yes, literacy rates are higher in Finland, that is a fact, but due to an inclusive education system, bubba's "homogeneity", phoneme-grapheme correlation of the language.... not lower levels of dyslexia (I don't know where you got that from). As I stated above, apparently one of the main problems that some dyslexic kids have with the Finnish language is learning to decompose (very) long words into their lexical sub units (polysyllabic awareness??? - I just made that up, I have no idea what it is called) which is an essential part of reading and understanding Finnish. Maybe there are other issues but I am not a Finnish teacher I have also heard of young kids having problems with sequencing (being able to order ideas and events chronologically) but I am not sure if that is rooted in any specificities of the Finnish language.

My undertstanding of reading methods in the UK is that most primary schools are using the Biff and Chip method which is largely based on phonics (aka The Oxford Reading Tree). AFAIK, the global (whole word) approach is no longer widely used in the UK. But as I said already, I don't live there. I agree that all schools should be using phonics to teach reading (in English), if this is not the case then it is not surprising that literacy rates are so low. But phonics won't cure dyslexia (or ADHD), they just help dyslexic kids to learn to read.

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

ADHD???

Oh, this is gonna get interesting.

[debonaire]

But you're not looking at the whole picture...Firstly, which Asians? There's a bit of a difference between, Pakistanis, Indians, chinese etc etc...RACIST!!!! Also I think the achievement of Asians (?) is more about their own culture and the parents being very demanding....blah, blah, blah....and litle to do with the UK school system or the language...

Demanding parents is not much of a factor as it doesn't really count much in the present scenario..maybe about 15 years ago it would have mattered...the zeal to excel comes from within..and not to speak of the fierce competition we face at home at every walk of life..to get into any premier institute back home,one has to slog his ass off and have to posssess strong fundamentals...heck,i had to compete with around 100,000-115,000 guys to get into a premier engineering institute in India which only had about 2000 places available across all streams...
Atleast during my time,the situation was like survival of the fittest,with regard to the top colleges across the country...you have to work really really hard to achieve what you aim for and still there is no guarantee that you would eventually get it as there are thousand other kids going for the same...Failure is not an option for many as it is hugely expensive.Ofocrse there are thousand other colleges where one can easily get admissioin but its not the same thing as studying in an A grade college/institute...and ofcorse,there is an option for going abroad where admission is a piece of cake(other than the Ivy League Institutes).

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

Fair call...but I am talking about Asians in the Uk.

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

Can't disagree with the achievement/region stuff there...Ok, the stats are commonly known but that's what I have seen myself going to a college in a large Asian area (mostly Pakistanis)...Not only in the classes but outside/socially too, the indians go home or to the library while the Pakistanis sell pot and cause trouble. The chinese quietly sit in huge gangs and ignore everything that goes on...or pretend to do so.

Mind you I don't know why you included the sex crime issue?!?!?