Working in English

[raamv]

Creativity is good. Thinking outside the box is actually more intelligent than just thinking what you're told. I suppose that's the essential difference between East Asians and Europeans. We have relatively high IQs (around 100 on average), but are very creative, and so invented the modern world (especially England). The East Asians have even higher IQs (around 107), but are culturally constrained from using it - hence the Chinese civilization is very old etc but they essentiallly just sat there for thousands of years without progressing much. Finland is a unique case of a society that was actually very backward until quite recently, and then suddenly caught up, but the success of Nokia etc shows creativity in the modern world.

What a bunch of Croc this!!

[llewellyn]

Creativity is good. Thinking outside the box is actually more intelligent than just thinking what you're told. I suppose that's the essential difference between East Asians and Europeans. We have relatively high IQs (around 100 on average), but are very creative, and so invented the modern world (especially England). The East Asians have even higher IQs (around 107), but are culturally constrained from using it - hence the Chinese civilization is very old etc but they essentiallly just sat there for thousands of years without progressing much. Finland is a unique case of a society that was actually very backward until quite recently, and then suddenly caught up, but the success of Nokia etc shows creativity in the modern world.

Well, I think that actually the Middle-Easteners win by mile this eccentric racial/cultural competition - writing, wheel, agriculture... Us Anglo-Saxons cum Finns would still be climbing trees without these brown skinned heroic nations! Not that any of this has the tiniest relation to average national IQ:s. But what the hell.

[pierrot]

Creativity is good. Thinking outside the box is actually more intelligent than just thinking what you're told. I suppose that's the essential difference between East Asians and Europeans. We have relatively high IQs (around 100 on average), but are very creative, and so invented the modern world (especially England). The East Asians have even higher IQs (around 107), but are culturally constrained from using it - hence the Chinese civilization is very old etc but they essentiallly just sat there for thousands of years without progressing much. Finland is a unique case of a society that was actually very backward until quite recently, and then suddenly caught up, but the success of Nokia etc shows creativity in the modern world.

Well, I think that actually the Middle-Easteners win by mile this eccentric racial/cultural competition - writing, wheel, agriculture... Us Anglo-Saxons cum Finns would still be climbing trees without these brown skinned heroic nations! Not that any of this has the tiniest relation to average national IQ:s. But what the hell.

So that was 5000 years ago. And since then?

[llewellyn]

So that was 5000 years ago. And since then?

Well, that's pretty much my attitude to this whole question - history is not a competition. Leadership position usually has meant only an opportunity to misuse power, and to view history as a sort of extended and exalted Eurovision contest is just plain silly. Individual variation is the important thing, and our universal problem, quite regardless of nationality or race, is that wrong persons end up in positions of power and influence. We ain't as clever as we think, obviously.

[easily-lost]

Creativity is good. Thinking outside the box is actually more intelligent than just thinking what you're told. I suppose that's the essential difference between East Asians and Europeans...

Are you comparing all Europeans with all East Asians or just Europeans who think outside the box with Asians who think outside the box?! I don't think it's fair to make a comparison cross different "categories", is it?

As far as I know, there is either a political force or mortal influence or both in Asian countries, while religions play the same role in Europe. I don't see how Europeans who don't follow the "box" somehow managed to be more intelligent than Asians who play around their "box", or the majority of Asians who follow what they are told by the government are dumber than most Europeans who believe firmly in what they are taught, for example, the Book, let alone to name it "the essential difference between East Asians and Europeans".

[Rosamunda]

Well, that's pretty much my attitude to this whole question - history is not a competition.

But economics is.

But it probably ain't sustainable.

Going back to the hunters and gatherers (I was stuck in traffic on Keha III), I think their skills are still relevant to modern western society. Tracking is all about forensics, problem-solving and trouble-shooting. I don't think it is as "instinctive" as the Discovery Channel would have us believe. No more instinctive than solving a crime or diagnosing a patient or debugging a load of code.

[Rob A.]

Creativity is good. Thinking outside the box is actually more intelligent than just thinking what you're told. I suppose that's the essential difference between East Asians and Europeans. We have relatively high IQs (around 100 on average), but are very creative, and so invented the modern world (especially England). The East Asians have even higher IQs (around 107), but are culturally constrained from using it - hence the Chinese civilization is very old etc but they essentiallly just sat there for thousands of years without progressing much. Finland is a unique case of a society that was actually very backward until quite recently, and then suddenly caught up, but the success of Nokia etc shows creativity in the modern world.

You're a funny guy... ....so England invented the modern world???...that sounds like a point of view that would resonate well in only one country... And, of course, the Americans think they invented the modern world....just ask them...but then, of course, they're just a bunch of rebellious immigrant Englishmen....well, except for the millions of non-English immigrants who poured in through Ellis Island....

But, seriously... , from a strictly Eurocentric point of view I thought it was Italy...or more precisely the various Italian states which invented the modern world....and I'll bet the IQ statistics for Italy will be consistent with this statement... My guess is that the Italians are the most intelligent people in Europe.... and, as a bonus, they have superior organizational skills, too, don't they???.....

Gee...and what about France....if it wasn't for William the Conqueror....the English would just be another bunch of Germanic squareheads, wouldn't they???.... Oh but wait...the Norman French were actually a bunch of misplaced Latinized Vikings....

Gee...I'm starting to get dizzy...

[easily-lost]

I have never met a Chinese person who thinks outside the box. I lived there for four years and everyone repeated government propaganda to me. If you mean there are no cultural differences between the various cultures, you are wrong about that.

Isn't it a bit too arrogant to judge a whole nation merely by your personal experience?

Living in China for 4 years... I can't help laughing-- You might see some major places but that's it. If you ever knew a bit more about what it is really like in a Chinese society other than always staying with the little western circle wherever you might be during your stay, you wouldn't be so brave to say anything like the sort. As it says: No knowledge, no fear. "Wu zhi zhe wu wei", ever heard of that?

Let's put it in another way, what do you mean by the "box"? Laws? Regulations? Rules (mostly cultural in this case)? The way most people think? Anything else?

Second question is: Why is it so "intelligent" by saying something against the government?

Or you just want to help your country win the "economy competition" by expecting or provoking civil wars in other nations? I would like to hear you say words outside the "box" in your country publicly, and see how it ends there.

[easily-lost]

I'm afraid I know Chinese people far better than you do, so...your "teaching" could be skipped for now.

Just take a look at Iraq! The culture is such that it was impossible to transplant democracy there. It was far too advanced a concept for people on that cultural level.

I am afraid people in different countries are different.

You may feel Iraq needs the "democracy" which is the propaganda from the west, why not leave the people there themselves to decide what they want? Who gives you the right to tell what's good and not for them?! I can understand it unless you're a citizen of Iraq though.

People ARE different, and I appreciate and respect the differences. However, you seem not happy with the diversity of humans or societies. Unfortunately, not everybody has to agree with you, have we?

[pierrot]

(...)Second question is: Why is it so "intelligent" by saying something against the government?

Or you just want to help your country win the "economy competition" by expecting or provoking civil wars in other nations? I would like to hear you say words outside the "box" in your country publicly, and see how it ends there.

Well you can clearly go and make a demonstration against the government or it's politics in any western European country and nothing will happen to you as long as it doesn't turn violent. Go and wear a "Free tibet" flag or "remember Tiananmen" in Beijing and see what happens. Why is Internet in China being censored? Because of a risk of a civil war?
Questioning authority and politics is a healthy way to control governments, and funnily enough doesn't lead to civil wars in most democratic countries.

[mrjimsfc]

You say you appreciate and respect the differences in humanity. Have you read Allan Bloom's The Closing of the American Mind?

I truly hope this is not going to turn into another America bashing thing.

[easily-lost]

That people don't talk about such "sensitive" things doesn't mean they don't know about it. It's the opposite if you think about it for a minute. Yes, those two books are just a drop of the bucket if you want to go to that "dark" direction of the nation. I'm sure every country would have the same side.

What you're trying to argue about is that you believe Chinese people always think INSIDE the box...based on your own experience. I can guarantee that you will get plenty "nasty" replies if you question about Finland on whatever issues even on this forum. Obviously, there are always "lines" people shouldn't cross wherever they are, and I assume that's the "box" you meant. If you want to be a "trouble-maker", what can I do?!


Well, what's the point of wearing a shirt saying things that you can't control of?! That only makes the person look like an "idiot" in public. Try wearing a shirt that says "I heart Sweden" or "I speak only English" in Finland, I'd like to collect feedback from the giggling crowds for you, but you will have to get the "feedback" from red-eyed drunk Finnish guys yourself then.

[easily-lost]

Quite frankly, the idea that Chinese culture is NOT different from that of the West is so absurd that it does not merit further discussion.

No one claimed so. What I said was Asian cultures have their "restrictions" or "forms" or whatever you want to call it, be it political, cultural, mortal; while in the west, most people believe in religions. No offense to those who are religious, but do I have to go through all the "negative" sides of it?! Can you say they are open-minded towards science or anything outside their own religion? So, your claim of Asians thinking inside the box, while Westerners thinking outside the box all the time is false.

Everyone has their own opinions or even bias towards everything, for example, education (systems) as you mentioned from the book. I do have mine, but I just don't like to spread it all over places like here on a forum. Maybe later when I want to write a book of it.

As you can see mrjimsfc, I managed not to mention anything about the US...yet.

[EP]

Try wearing a shirt that says "I heart Sweden" or "I speak only English" in Finland,

As a teenager my son did that. He had been on a class trip to Stockholm and bought a "I heart Sweden" T-shirt. He wore it to Sweden-Finland football match and spoke Finnish loudly.

[easily-lost]

Try wearing a shirt that says "I heart Sweden" or "I speak only English" in Finland,

As a teenager my son did that. He had been on a class trip to Stockholm and bought a "I heart Sweden" T-shirt. He wore it to Sweden-Finland football match and spoke Finnish loudly.

I wouldn't be surprised a teenager did that.