Any Finland-USA tax advisors in Helsinki?

[Pursuivant]

Well the thing is if you live in Finland you're liable for all income here. Theres some taxation treaties if the US taxes you, you can deduct the few mills when the VERO settles for the kill.

[Desundial]

ha, ha, the fun begins . Best get familiar with both vero.fi and irs.gov. Technically no matter what you decide on the Finnish end you MUST file in USA if you are a US citizen or holder of a US greencard, no matter where you live, unless total income is below a certain threshold. You must continue to file in USA for the rest of your life, or 10 years if you renounce your citizenship. Yes, this means the USA wants to tax you on whatever you are making in finland. You have, btw, an automatic 2 month extension to file if you live outside of USA, but owe interest on any tax due.

Finland's interest in the income received from investments in USA depends on your status here. If you are on a temporary student visa, they don't care. If you have any Finnish citizenship or regular visa (i.e. work, family ties, etc.) they care. And If this is the case, keep in mind Vero is a hell of a lot more oganized than the IRS and wields a far bigger stick if you're found shirking.

The tax treaty means each country recognizes the tax paid already (and cooperates on sharing tax information/conducting investigations between agencies). What I've never figured out is how they expect one to work it all out at exactly the same time, but then, I usually get severly frustrated with the 2 cm thick US tax "instructions" and the worksheets and forms which have you fill out 50 boxes showing income only to end up owing nothing in the end, or finding out that no, you can't take any deductions at all .

[AlexInHelsinki]

Technically no matter what you decide on the Finnish end you MUST file in USA if you are a US citizen or holder of a US greencard, no matter where you live, unless total income is below a certain threshold. You must continue to file in USA for the rest of your life, or 10 years if you renounce your citizenship. Yes, this means the USA wants to tax you on whatever you are making in finland.

Actually, as I understand it (could be wrong...has happened before...once), you MUST pay tax in the USA no matter what (unless of course, like you said, your income is below some ridiculously small threshold), for the rest of your life even IF you renounce your citizenship. Like, there is NO WAY (barring above) to legally get out of paying US taxes on ANY income you earn EVER, no matter where you've earned it, be that Miami or Mars. So yay! We get to pay taxes twice! Oh wait, no, 4 times if you consider you're taxed when you spend money AND when you earn it. Hooray.

Stupid greedy USA. Then you charge us 9 million dollars for health care and another 9 million for an education.

Hate you.

[rob34]

Technically no matter what you decide on the Finnish end you MUST file in USA if you are a US citizen or holder of a US greencard, no matter where you live, unless total income is below a certain threshold. You must continue to file in USA for the rest of your life, or 10 years if you renounce your citizenship. Yes, this means the USA wants to tax you on whatever you are making in finland.

Actually, as I understand it (could be wrong...has happened before...once), you MUST pay tax in the USA no matter what (unless of course, like you said, your income is below some ridiculously small threshold), for the rest of your life even IF you renounce your citizenship. Like, there is NO WAY (barring above) to legally get out of paying US taxes on ANY income you earn EVER, no matter where you've earned it, be that Miami or Mars. So yay! We get to pay taxes twice! Oh wait, no, 4 times if you consider you're taxed when you spend money AND when you earn it. Hooray.

Stupid greedy USA. Then you charge us 9 million dollars for health care and another 9 million for an education.

Hate you.

This is incorrect. The waiver limit is something like $86,000, and then after that you can claim credits on taxes paid.

But to the OP: Let me know if you find a good accountant! :thumbup:

[malongo]

as usual, nobody has answered your question. sorry i can't give you any personal recommendations but the taxpayers' association of finland might have some advice:

http://www.veronmaksajat.fi/fi-FI/inenglish/

and maybe one of the firms listed here does personal accounting and has someone who knows US tax law:

http://www.expat-finland.com/entreprene ... firms.html

good luck!

[Rosamunda]

My understanding is that you have to declare it all on both sides of the pond. But yes, the threshold for paying tax in the USA if you are domiciled abroad is over 80 000 USD.

Have you tried the webpages of the US Embassy....? They may have a list of accountants who can help you.

[Kupcake]

I know quite a few Americans who wanted the same type of professional that you do, but they couldn't find anybody to help them here. Two families i know ended up moving because they couldn't sort it out and the financial implications were going to be huge.

I suggest you contact an international accountant in the states (through some kind of accountants association), and retain his/her services for your ttax returns. They exist, but they are rare. Not sure if the cost of those services would be deductible or not - they should be able to tell you.

Wishing you luck!

[raamv]

Does anyone know any tax accountants/advisors in Finland who understand both Finnish and USA tax laws? An example, if I earn money from investments in the USA is it better to file a tax return in the USA and pay the taxes there, or is better to declare the income in Finland and pay the taxes here?

Mostly, Its PWC ( Price Water cooperhouse : http://www.pwc.com/extweb/service.nsf/d ... d1004f96ab ) and Maybe capman.
and also Acenture:
http://www.accenture.com/Countries/Finl ... llinto.htm

[AldenG]

If you're talking about plain old brokerage accounts, your situation actually sounds fairly simple for professionals.

First ask your Finnish tax preparer/advisor what to do about that income. Either you pay Finnish tax on it or you don't. (I'm guessing, and it's only a guess, that you do.) And although rental property and other sources of US investment income might be a little more confusing to your Finnish tax preparer, I'm sure they can handle that, too.

After you've calculated your Finnish tax, give all the information to your American preparer. Even if a tax liability accrued in the US, you'd get a credit for any Finnish taxes you paid. The most likely "gotcha" situation would be that taxes are normally deductible for the income year in which they are paid (not the year in which the liability accrued); I no longer remember how it works with offsets intended to prevent double taxation.

In many respects, Finland gets "first dibs" because you're domiciled there. And considering US extensions, your filing is also due months earlier in Finland. So you don't need to do both returns simultaneously. Work out the Finnish side and then the American side will be pretty simple for an American CPA. Your hard deadline in the U.S. is Oct 15. To get that, you need to explicitly file for an automatic 6-month extension beyond the automatic 2-month extension mentioned upthread. You don't get 8 months in sum, though, only 6 months beyond the US April 15th deadline.

Don't even think about trying to hide income. The expense and aggravation of getting caught doing that on purpose (and defending such a charge) would be so much worse than the pain of paying. The same thing applies to customs declarations. It's just insane to cheat, especially considering that the duties into the US are not high, anyway. Bitching and moaning about taxes makes sense, especially some tax rates in some places. Cheating on them just does not.

Getting back on point, I doubt you need some super-duper international-man-of-mystery tax expert. Split it into two separate and sequential problems and each becomes relatively straightforward.

[Pursuivant]

First ask your Finnish tax preparer/advisor what to do about that income.

Jebus gives you people must be either retarded or filthy rich... hay but that means 1:1 ... nevermind. Someone to do your taxes for you *sheesh*

[AldenG]

Jebus gives you people must be either retarded or filthy rich... hay but that means 1:1 ... nevermind. Someone to do your taxes for you *sheesh*

As I recall, in Finland you state your income from different sources over about 4 pages (is that right?), and the authorities tell you what you have to pay.

In the US the taxpayer (or a tax preparer) normally calculates the tax liability, though it is possible to ask the Internal Revenue Service to do so. Far more than half the time, what you state is what you pay. Just don't get caught cheating or you'll have fines, potentially jail, and you'll be put under a magnifying glass for years afterwards.

Although a US tax form for someone with only employment income from a single employer can be as short as half a page, it doesn't take much to push you onto the standard 2-page form plus various appendices. To take a common Finnish example, owning a summer cottage would probably do that. Having a mortgage will usually do that. In the US, you or your accountant or tax preparer state the income, deductions, credits, etc., and calculate your tax. The computer sends you an automated correction if it notices a mistake. If it notices something inconsistent with the profile it thinks you should fit, a revenue service agent examines your return and may or may not take any action. Most of the time you won't know if a human checked your return. Only about 1-3% of Americans get formally audited.

So it's potentially a good deal simpler in the US than Finland. But normally it is more complicated.

Too many people in the US do their own taxes. The percentage of mistakes on self-prepared returns, especially for people without a lot of money and sophistication, is quite high. If you forget to deduct your state income tax payments from your federally taxable income, the IRS computer is not going to tell you you just paid potentially thousands of unnecessary dollars in taxes. It just gives a contented burp and moves on to the next taxpayer.

You definitely don't have to be retarded OR rich to be smart in using a tax preparer in the US. It's probably the norm. And it helps keep you from getting steamrolled by the bureaucracy if there is some kind of mistake. In the original poster's case, retaining a house in the US or having investment accounts, even modest ones, in US banks while living in Finland would normally make it prudent to have a Certified Public Accountant prepare the tax return -- especially for the income year he moved into Finland and the year he moves out of Finland. And to be on the safe side, maybe the first year of living only in Finland. For later years in Finland, he could use an earlier return as a model to make sure he didn't overlook an important appendix or deduction. Then it would be reasonable to do his own tax forms.

I suppose you could say it's not the forms that are complicated. It's the damned instructions. And the exceptions. And the extra forms you didn't realize you had to file for a certain situation.

[Pursuivant]

Yeah, I've given a tax return and gotten a refund from the US. The booklet was about the same as what we get for instructions. It requires an ability to read and add, and process the thoughts in between. If you can't read the rules then thats the problem in education Would it be an idea to start requiring literacy to pass high school? For the guys *making* the rules... funniest thing 3/4 of any documents is the small print of "paperwork reduction act".

Like here if I don't understand the rules of VERO I wouldn't imagine of say starting a business. Even I can understand the rules I wouldn't start a business. However foreigners start businessess all the time. So whats this then. Me being too wise? Havamal says its bad as the wise man is only burdened in his heart. Maybe we should become Americans - retarded and rich - unless you share the opinion of the Christian Science Monitor.

[AldenG]

...unless you share the opinion of the Christian Science Monitor

In my case you're preaching to the converted.

As we say at every Juhannus seder, "Next year in Lappeenranta."

It's . . . complicated.

[rob34]

Go here: http://www.vero.fi/default.asp?language ... RO_ENGLISH
click on "Finnish Tax System", then open the "Taxation in Finland" PDF.

Go to section 6.3.

USA falls under the "no double tax" clauses.




Also, I asked a relative, who is a judge in the Finnish system, and I was told that reporting doesn't even become an issue until you bring a huge sum of money over and the bank starts raising eyebrows. The whole purpose of the reporting is NOT to tax but to avoid laundering.

So if you make bank in the USA, and spend it on your American credit card in Finland, or bring the money into the Euro zone via Switzerland or other, then you don't really have to report.

If you transfer money into your Finnish bank, then you need to report if the tax man flags you when you get your tax statement in March of the following year. But once you report, you claim waivers and as far as I understand you pay nothing.

[Rosamunda]

Hmmm.... not true but depends....

If you are resident in Finland then tax is due on your TOTAL income (whatever the source) as the income is earned.

So, transfering CASH from the USA to Finland is not necessarily taxable if the CASH in question was earned over there and taxed over there when you were resident over there.

However, income CURRENTLY being earned in the USA (while you are resident in Finland) is taxable in Finland whether it is in a bank, under your mattress or somewhere in cyberspace.

IOW: Don't confuse CASH and INCOME. They are two different things.

You don't have to report CASH transfers (the bank will do this for you anyway) but you do have to report INCOME (even if it is gifts, inheritance, royalties etc etc etc) and even if it stays in the USA.

Vero will calculate your EFFECTIVE TAX RATE based on your TOTAL INCOME. They will deduct any tax already paid in the USA from your Finnish tax bill. But if your effective tax rate is higher than the USA tax rate, you still have to pay the difference in Finland. For example: if you paid 15% tax on earnings at source in the USA but your effective tax rate in Finland is 35%, Vero will bill you for the difference.... Another reason why you have to report the USA earnings.

And don't think they don't check up. That would be silly.

@raamv. I don't think Accenture does tax advice. That are not allowed to any more (remember Enron etc etc etc???) Accenture is the Andersen consulting business.