Finnish law...please help!

sabsum · Post by **sabsum** » Mon May 25, 2009 10:16 pm

Hi all,
After waiting for a really long time,finally i got a cleaning job in a new place.The place has got an alarm system.On the first day of my work,unknowingly i made the alarm to beep but i didn't notice that it was beeping.Police came to the place after half an hour and asked me some questions.I said them that it was the first day of my work and didn't notice the sound.They told it was ok.
When i got my salary,i noticed that nearly 32% of my salary was reduced for making that alarm.I admit that my supervisor had told me to put the alarm after cleaning the place.Actually the building has got many doors and it happened that i didn't realize all of them are linked.So,stupidly i put on the alarm,came out from one door and again entered from the door that was totally at backside.(I have never seen such alarm system in my country,so had no any idea).
I am just wondering if i should really pay for that??or who is responsible???I am really dissapointed as i have got really very less money in my hand.And the company has not paid extra money for evening shifts as according to my contract,it says i will get some more amount for the evening shift.

What should i do??Please help
Thanks...

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Rosamunda · Post by **Rosamunda** » Mon May 25, 2009 11:19 pm

You should seriously consider joining a union as they are the best people to defend your interests.

Make sure you keep a record of exactly how many hours you are working. If it states in your contract that you will be paid for overtime, then your employer should do that.

Do you have some colleagues who you can talk to. If they are in a similar situation to yourself, then they can maybe give you some advice on which union to join.

As for the alarm, I cannot advise you but as a minimum I would say that you are entitled to see the invoice from the police (was it police or Securicor who came out?) as proof that your employer is not over-charging you.

Pursuivant · Post by **Pursuivant** » Mon May 25, 2009 11:23 pm

Ah, poor you. I don't think it was the police but the rentacops - security guys who have the alarms. They charge for unnecessary alarms.

Anyways, it is not excuse for you that you did not know... well now you know. It is the responsibility of your boss to explain to you. But also is it his problem he cannot understand you have not seen this before. This is a classic example of "everybody knows".... so you are not guilty but the boss who did not explain it to you thoroughly. He assumed you would know.

OK, so you can say to your boss you think this is unfair because you were not explained thoroughly. Problem is that if you complain and you are still the 3-4 months period they can say to you "goodbye" - so you have no work.

Extra money comes usually in the next paycheck, they calculate it separate from the hours.

FraserinFinland · Post by **FraserinFinland** » Tue May 26, 2009 12:01 am

So yes, you are screwed. Even the Finns are snookered with solutions.
Rock the boat, you are out of a job. Go to the MOL and say the pay and conditions are not right they will ping you for 120 days.

Pursuivant · Post by **Pursuivant** » Tue May 26, 2009 12:28 am

And if hes not worked for 10 months + contributed the KELA is F-all

blaugrau · Post by **blaugrau** » Tue May 26, 2009 7:23 am

Pursuivant wrote: This is a classic example of "everybody knows".... so you are not guilty but the boss who dod not explain it to you thoroughly. He assumed you would know.

@Pursuivant: Really, do you think all Finns automatically know all possible alarm systems? (Or was there some irony that I didn't get). I highly doubt that you can count such a thing to some kind of "Finnish culture". If a Finn had never worked in such a place, they wouldn't know either, I assume.

@Sabsum: But to the yes, I'd also advise joining a union, the one for service workers is PAM: http://www.pam.fi/in_english/
You could for example also try e-mailing them if they can give you some advice on the matter you described.

As was mentioned before already, joining a union is also a good idea from the point of view of possible unemployment in the future: in order to get income-related unemployment money, you have to be a member of a union/unemployment fund for at least 10 months.

sabsum · Post by **sabsum** » Tue May 26, 2009 8:26 am

Thanks all guys for ur suggestions.
Yeh,they were the security people and i had also read the invoice they sent to the office(i saw that in the table while cleaning) but there was not written any amount to be paid.It was in FINNISH and i didn't get all of them but it stated some of my info,alarm sounding time and the time they came to the office.

Pursuivant is exactly correct about the matter regarding my trial period.Ofcourse,if i complain something,probably i will be kicked out.So,i have thought to ask about that to my supervisor(who isnt a finn,i wish he will help me (the account manager is a finn lady and she is much strict,i should say)).If it doesn't work,i have to compromise..no any options.Lets see what happens!

Oh ya..about joining the union,some of my colleagues said that it is not that worth at all as we have to pay high amount monthly which will lessen the amount to be in your hand that you have expected to get.I checked the site:http://www.pam.fi/in_english/membership/ which says:

''Most employers will make a collection agreement with PAM to deduct your membership subscription directly from your pre-tax wages and forward it to the union. If your employer is unwilling to do this, then you may pay your subscription separately every month''
In my payment slip,it shows that they have reduced some amount from my salary for 3 proposes:
1.TOIMITETTAVA ENNAKONPIDÄTYS
2.TYÖNTEKIJÄN TYÖTTÖMYYSVAKUUTUS
3.TYÖNTEKIJÄN ELÄKE

One of them is the normal tax i have to pay.But i don't know what are the other deductions for?Translation shows it's something pension.If my employer is deducting these amounts automatically from my salary,do i still need to pay if i join the unions??

Thanks.
Lets hope for the best!
Sabsum.

Tiwaz · Post by **Tiwaz** » Tue May 26, 2009 9:28 am

Dear blaugrau...

Perhaps Finns more often understand simple logic that alarm system which has holes in it is very bad.

If you leave some doors or windows outside alarm system somehow, you are basically creating pointless vulnerability in the system.

Though when they first started to really appear, there were many people who did not get the idea of alarm system. My mother used to work in position where she would end up getting calls when some idiot teacher did not grasp idea that when alarms are on, they are bloody ON. And then they used their keys to go fetch something from their classroom.

Pursuivant · Post by **Pursuivant** » Tue May 26, 2009 9:40 am

well if you don't join a union you should anyways join an unemployment fund. http://www.ytk.fi is 67 euros per year. you should read that through. because if you end up unemployed you won't get any unemployment benefits exept very small money from KELA . this is also things "everybody knows" - hopefully your colleagues also know this. otherwise you can be in for a very nasty surprise.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Tue May 26, 2009 9:45 am

sabsum wrote: Pursuivant is exactly correct about the matter regarding my trial period.Ofcourse,if i complain something,probably i will be kicked out.So,i have thought to ask about that to my supervisor(who isnt a finn,i wish he will help me (the account manager is a finn lady and she is much strict,i should say)).If it doesn't work,i have to compromise..no any options.Lets see what happens!

If there is somebody with proper legal knowledge of these issues, he could perhaps tell if the best option would be to not to cause any disturbance right now, but sue them later after you either have a stronger footing in Finland or are leaving the country anyway. My gut feeling is that you are getting screwed more than legally allowed (A: can they deduct that kind of fee on your first day of work (the very least they seemed to have failed to properly train you), and B: is the amount charged within reasonable limits), but making a fuss about it right now is perhaps not in your best interest.

If you decide to join an union (quite possibly a wise decision in your situation, including to get competent legal advice), you will have to pay that 1.5% of your gross salary. It is tax deductible, so eventually you will get back that fraction of it which corresponds to your tax rate.
You can either ask your employer to deduct the payment from your salary (Legally they are not allowed to discriminate against you because of that, I am not sure if it could still happen in practice), or you can just pay it separately like any other bill yourself (no need to tell your employer if you don't wish).

In my payment slip,it shows that they have reduced some amount from my salary for 3 proposes:

All of these you will still pay even if you join an union:

1.TOIMITETTAVA ENNAKONPIDÄTYS

(estimated) tax

2.TYÖNTEKIJÄN TYÖTTÖMYYSVAKUUTUS

Unemploymentinsurance fee. This only gives you the low basic level benefits. You will need to pay it also after possibly joining an union

3.TYÖNTEKIJÄN ELÄKE

Pension payment, also needs to be paid in all cases

Pursuivant · Post by **Pursuivant** » Tue May 26, 2009 9:53 am

I think its that they can deduct the fee - but it isn't right. However being right vs. having a job.... I think we all agree its still the bosses responsibility to explain things like alarms and make sure the person understands...

Rosamunda · Post by **Rosamunda** » Tue May 26, 2009 10:07 am

Pursuivant wrote:well if you don't join a union you should anyways join an unemployment fund. http://www.ytk.fi is 67 euros per year. you should read that through. because if you end up unemployed you won't get any unemployment benefits exept very small money from KELA . this is also things "everybody knows" - hopefully your colleagues also know this. otherwise you can be in for a very nasty surprise.

Yes, you should do this and I think you would probably benefit from joining the union. As the man said, it is tax deductible and I think PAM has been doing a lot of work defending immigrant workers. Here is the collective agreement PAM negotiated with the facilities service sector (cleaning) http://www.pam.fi/in_english/rights_at_ ... the_facil/

EP · Post by EP » Tue May 26, 2009 11:56 am

And the company has not paid extra money for evening shifts as according to my contract,it says i will get some more amount for the evening shift.

I think you should now forget the money you had to pay for the alarm and concentrate on the extra you should get for working evenings/Sundays. If it really is missing from your paycheck you should ask about it. That is not rocking the boat, that is just a normal question. Ask where does your evening extra show in the pay check.

umit · Post by **umit** » Tue May 26, 2009 12:16 pm

Pursuivant wrote:I think its that they can deduct the fee - but it isn't right. However being right vs. having a job.... I think we all agree its still the bosses responsibility to explain things like alarms and make sure the person understands...

Yes, you're right... Something similar happened in our working place. Security company called and informed me that we were having a burglary and the police is on the way. Later on we found out that one of the cleaners managed to find the hidden emergency button for the alarm system, and couldn't stop his curiosity to press it.

But as a soft-hearted oriental man, I convinced our account manager not to deduct anything from his salary

rinso · Post by **rinso** » Tue May 26, 2009 12:31 pm

Rip wrote: My gut feeling is that you are getting screwed more than legally allowed

Probably

(A: can they deduct that kind of fee on your first day of work (the very least they seemed to have failed to properly train you), and B: is the amount charged within reasonable limits)

They can. And only a third party (union) can give an opinion about how reasonable the amount is. But that is only afterwards after you started the fuzz.
The training of course was adequate they'll say. It is not their fault that the foreigner was more stupid than they expected. "don't open doors when the alarm is on" is a straight forward message. Not much further training needed.
There are probably some internal guidelines (in Finnish) in which they stated they can claim money from you if you behave irresponsible and cost them money.
As long as you have no legal representation, they can get away with it.

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