Separate swimming times for women based on religion.

[Upphew]

Since you mentioned China... There are 55 minorities, who are taught in both Mandarin (the official language) and their own languages, mainly funded by the government, because of the same reason as the quote above from the article-- "weaker position".

China has 55 minorities, Finland has 2. That's 27,5 times more minorities with 255 times more population. Economies of scale start to come in to play.

[network_engineer]

Read slowly and carefully, for you might be missing the issue here.

1.
Well, it is not about teaching the Finnish language to the older generation, and I am not against teaching ones culture and language to ones offsprings.
What I am AGAINST is with obnoxious begging for public funds from the taxpayers. What part of this do you not get?

2.
To the post @ Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:11 pm, i.e. Equity != Equality etc.

Sure, they are not the same words, but they are very well related. Use Google, find dictionaries, check it out. In the context of proper usage, both mean similar,
equality = equal treatment
equity = freedom from bias.
Even if you were looking for the word equality, that means being equal, without respect to race, colour, creed or religion as in this case. Equality refers to similar treatment. Equity refers to fairness, or the equality of outcomes. Don't expect you to understand equality/equity or related terms, why, if it were left to you, women swimming segregated doesn't satisfy, you would even skin the women alive, stoning just ain't good enough anymore! See Bubba Elvis post above.

I would argue that the concept of equity could involve changing aspects of the system to encourage the disabled groups, but in this case, the only disability is unwillingness to use the matter between the ears, which I can sympathise with, there is no matter there!

3.
Brings me back to my original question: So, how much more equality are you looking for based on your regional interpretation of a religion?

What next? The equality to roam the city streets freely based on your religious belief but, oh yeah, demand "equal" rights to walk based on the religious bias? As an example, I.e. get the so-called religious police to slam women in shorts and shirts with sticks because they are offensive to your eyes and they violate your sense of equality to walk the streets free?

4.
Where in my posts did you read that the times/slots and gender ration be granted on the basis of your country of origin? I always maintained that it should be as per the local customs and as per society.

5.
Never mind the fact that cannot write, but can you also not read? I said this very clearly:
_ Immigrants pay taxes just like anybody.
_ Immigrants have SAME rights as anybody else.

NOT More, but equal rights.

6.
You pay taxes as you are part of the commune. In other words, does that mean that just because you do not use the hospital every year or month, taxes should not be used there? What about the police services? You mean to say if you don't drive, the roads should not be built? If your children are healthy, does that mean tax money should not be used to treat a sick child? That's why people with such thoughts don't belong here. I suggest the US, they have private insurance, i.e. you solely pay for your family and kids, not for somebody else's sickness. Finnair flies there daily! Or you can catch a camel, teach it to swim - either ways.

The very response posted that there is little that you value about being part of society. If the only acceptable mindset is that as defined by faith, then move to such a country. But that you would not want to do, for your rights to demand non-sense would be restricted.

7.
This is probably the shortest section: As regards your opinion about me: I am usually the polite kind of guy, but I'll make an exception this time. Here's my response: I DON'T Give A Rat's Ass!!!

8.
While I don't care about your opinion, you do deserve a response in an equal manner. Now, EVEN IF I was of a similar background from the board member 'raamv' (he may have Indian roots), and I did not want to drag him in here for this sake. Let me answer it this way:

The world right now is battling against certain "steadfast-characters" from certain groups, who, very often hold dear their own weird intepretations and comprise of a certain mis-interpreted faith group. Such characters, when I read the newspapers have a certain weird hobbies:

- such as fantasise about multi-million dollar flying machines
- with no flying skills, and generally no understanding of it either
- use them as darts against buildings
- or mix potent stuff that don't like each other
- and then carry such mixtures on to the multi-million dollar machines or moving machinery like buses
- and forget them there and try to get bones, flesh and blood mixed together!

Trust me, it ain't the people of board member raamv's background (if indeed from India) or for that matter from China, Philipnes, Ghana, Nigeria or any other country that the world is having a problem with. It is hardly because of them that people have to spend three hours in lines to get from place to place while flying. But then again, no prizes for guessing who the group comprises of! Take a look at the recent spate of evens in Paris, UK, Spain, Germany, USA, etc.

Did you also stop to wonder why certain groups form the basis of dislikes by the community in general. In fact, even decent people (maybe even yourself) from their own community suffer because of their weird behaviour.

As regards colonisation etc. yeah right. ROTL! Here's the other side and a good chance to teach you the meaning of "evolution". Some people tend to have brains, they tend to use them. And when they see the results are better, we tend to adopt it. And here's what the likes of these people will never understand. It is not a master relationship, it is a community! Been here a long, long time, stay far in a little village and we are most likely the only people of non Finnish origins. NEVER EVER felt even uncomfortable in anyway! Of course, if I had been making similar demands, I could have become very popular - NOT!

But then, there is this other species "Equus asinus" who share similar traits of stubbornness and arrogance as the ones making a request for segregated time slots. I remember seeing a show on television where the guy had to whack the animal - hard, to get it to even move. One hardly ever looks for a purebred of that species, cause it doesn't exist - it never develops any qualities of being a purebred with any desirable traits! "Equus asinus" stays that way, as rough as it comes!

9.
I take my comment back: I will respond if I have something to say.

10.
Oh, you do get some good points for your post. You score a 100% not for the psychoanalysis, but for being a psycho!

[network_engineer]

Bubba Elvis XIV: You hit the nail on the head!

[easily-lost]

China has 55 minorities, Finland has 2. That's 27,5 times more minorities with 255 times more population. Economies of scale start to come in to play.

Instead of comparing Finland with China, I was using it as an example of the explanation of the quoted article in my earlier post.

Each country has their own special situations, so you can't really make comparisons through formula straight away as in maths; and I don't really think "minorities" are quite the same as "immigrants".

Anyhow, a civilized nation should take "weak" groups of people into consideration into policy making, as long as it's considerate and positive to the whole society. If it's really like what Bubba said, then personally I don't mind them having some "privilege" in this matter.



On the other hand, it's just reserving some swimming hours; they didn't even mention whether this would influence the normal schedule for other women for crying out loud. How is that such a big deal?!

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

On the other hand, it's just reserving some swimming hours; they didn't even mention whether this would influence the normal schedule for other women for crying out loud. How is that such a big deal?!

I didn't want to get into this debate...

But yeah, I quite agree... I asked the same question earlier but seems no one knows/answered.

If the times are additional to the regular times, I really don't care. the article states that these times are for swimming lessons not just regular 'free' time swimming....er...stuff.

If the times are taken from the regular hours, then that's a different issue.

But again, it would depend on what those hours are used for.

There is special times for pregnant women, people with disabilities etc etc...I can't see how times outside the regular times to help other people, for whatever reason, can be a problem.

And really....who is to blame for this? the women for asking for the times or the local city for giving it to them?

[network_engineer]

On the other hand, it's just reserving some swimming hours; they didn't even mention whether this would influence the normal schedule for other women for crying out loud. How is that such a big deal?!

History and the spate of events show that such requests don't stop and lead to negative consequences. Moreover, as Bubba Elvis put it, CORRECTED: the women most likely don't even care for it. These guys forcing the women to swim away from the public by their, now what would be the right word in this context, never mind, let's just say family - it is a sign of subservience. Of course, are are times when the women come forward to say that it is their preference too, I refer you back to the post at Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:11 pm which would be more in context in this case.

The process was so successful that, soon this assimilation was recorded into their genes.

As regards assimilation, it will happen. Anybody reads the news here?

[Rick1]

The sad thing about this case is that those women probably don't give flying f@ck about it...or at least not all of them...However, pressure from their own community or partners probably stops them swimming at the regular times. And in some comunities going against the demands of their community can lead to tragedy. So if they wish to swim or more importantly need to learn to swim, the only option they have might be to demand seperate hours.

(that could be how they are in a weaker positon - they don't have the same equality in their community / marriage / relationships as other women).

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOh, and we as Western-Europe have to assimilate ofcourse to the behaviour they were 'fleeing' from. Well welcome to Finland and we will do everything to please you and especially your husband with his stoneage ideas. Well I have got some words for that which I will not use

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

History and the spate of events show that such requests don't stop and lead to negative consequences. Moreover, as Bubba Elvis put it, forcing the women to swim away from the public by their, now what would be the right word in this context, never mind, let's just say family - it is a sign of subservience.

That wasn't quite the point I was making...

[Rick1]

As regards assimilation, it will happen. Anybody reads the news here?

Well i have read about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_G ... tor)#Death

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOh, and we as Western-Europe have to assimilate ofcourse to the behaviour they were 'fleeing' from. Well welcome to Finland and we will do everything to please you and especially your husband with his stoneage ideas. Well I have got some words for that which I will not use

That's far call...And very true. By the way...can you remind me what the statistics regarding domestic violence are in modern 'western' Finland?

[Rick1]

Yes I was comparing them with those from Iran, Irak, Somalia etc. Stupid me they do not make statistics

[Tiwaz]

On the other hand, it's just reserving some swimming hours; they didn't even mention whether this would influence the normal schedule for other women for crying out loud. How is that such a big deal?!

I didn't want to get into this debate...

But yeah, I quite agree... I asked the same question earlier but seems no one knows/answered.

If the times are additional to the regular times, I really don't care. the article states that these times are for swimming lessons not just regular 'free' time swimming....er...stuff.

If the times are taken from the regular hours, then that's a different issue.

But again, it would depend on what those hours are used for.

There is special times for pregnant women, people with disabilities etc etc...I can't see how times outside the regular times to help other people, for whatever reason, can be a problem.

And really....who is to blame for this? the women for asking for the times or the local city for giving it to them?

Let's compare muslim women swimming group to disabled, elderly, pregnant or baby swim.

In one of these cases group is made of such people who do NOT have real, physical difference from majority population which would make them unable to be present in regular swimming education or regular swimming hours.

Anyone care to guess which group that is?


Another thing which came to my mind today when I was jogging... Why muslim women need to wear their odd dresses? Because Islam says so.
Let's take this to next level... Why Islam says to do so? Because Islam says that men cannot control themselves if they see any skin!
Well, this is not an issue in Finland clearly. Or most of western people... Men see lots of skin over here and it causes little to no issues in scale which would justify such odd behavior.

Thus, if this demand has true need to exist it must mean that Muslim men are unable to control their urges unlike us Finns unless woman is put into formless potato sack which bellows all around them. This means, we must deny access for Muslim men to swimming pools except on hours specifically granted to them, during which others may use the pool at their own risk. This because during regular hours, Muslim man would see so much bare female skin it would drive him insane.

Insane? So is demand for separate swimming classes for muslim women.

By the way, considering amount of cloth in those sacks they wear... Swimming skill makes little difference if they end up in water. All that textile will soak up so much water fast and pulls them down as surely as chainmail.

[Karhunkoski]

Appeasement to extreme religious needs and ideas in your homeland doesn't always work. Just ask the Pakistani governemnt.

Another angle is that Finland should feel ashamed this last week. They were the first country in Europe to give women the vote, yet now they beg forgiveness by appeasing conservative males who want women to conform to their own selfish and sexist ideology.

[Upphew]

Another thing which came to my mind today when I was jogging... Why muslim women need to wear their odd dresses? Because Islam says so.
Let's take this to next level... Why Islam says to do so? Because Islam says that men cannot control themselves if they see any skin!
Well, this is not an issue in Finland clearly. Or most of western people... Men see lots of skin over here and it causes little to no issues in scale which would justify such odd behavior.

Thus, if this demand has true need to exist it must mean that Muslim men are unable to control their urges unlike us Finns unless woman is put into formless potato sack which bellows all around them. This means, we must deny access for Muslim men to swimming pools except on hours specifically granted to them, during which others may use the pool at their own risk. This because during regular hours, Muslim man would see so much bare female skin it would drive him insane.

Insane? So is demand for separate swimming classes for muslim women.

By the way, considering amount of cloth in those sacks they wear... Swimming skill makes little difference if they end up in water. All that textile will soak up so much water fast and pulls them down as surely as chainmail.

Good points. Although religion and reasoning doesn't mix very well and I'd guess that you would get mucho älämölö if you seriously suggested that to the muslim community (or you would be judged to have wrong opinion by flower hatted aunties, if you suggested that to the city's officials). Anyways you would be considered to be some kind of racist and follower of Halla-aho and thus unwanted person with wrong opinions and horribly ideas.

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

Muslim, muslim, muslim...yawn, yawn, yawn...