Separate swimming times for women based on religion.

[sammy]

Do you see women dressed this way in Helsinki or elsewhere in Finland?

In Helsinki - a few. I'd say most immigrant women do wear the headscarf at least, and many of course also the flowing robes... but only occasionally you meet someone who also keeps her face covered. I'd presume -although it's difficult to say for sure - that those would be of the "older" generation.

Some of them robes, as such, are quite beautiful in fact. Another thing altogether is whether they are practical at these latitudes at all, and whether it is 'right' that one is required to wear one.

I mean should I prance about wearing clothes like this?



I wouldn't mind at some particular occasions but... all the time, just because tradition/religion says so... hmm. Difficult to say, although I suppose we also have certain norms of dress which may not be quite as strictly based on religion/ideology but may still appear so from someone's point of view (no dresses/skirts for men, for example... unless you're a Scotsman of course...)

[Pursuivant]

Do you see women dressed this way in Helsinki or elsewhere in Finland?

yes, but are they women and what do they do at night?

[AldenG]

Did anyone here read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's "Infidel?" I found it interesting as an intelligent critique from inside her culture. I was really shocked, though, to learn she had later taken a fellowship with the neoconservative American Enterprise Institute. At first I thought she must not have understood what they are. (They call themselves a "think tank," but real think tanks use thinking and analysis of external research to arrive at unpreconceived truths. AEI, like so many neocon organs, instead exists to cherry-pick information and construct rationalizations for ideologically preconceived conclusions. They may have been something better once, but that is what they do today.)

It's interesting how often people flee one repressive ideology only to land in the arms of another. I think in this case, though, it might be best understood as a reaction against knee-jerk multiculturalism and political correctness. I say this without taking a position on Islamic immigration in Western cultures -- which is not to say I don't have one, but it would be a distraction from my point.

David Brock, the former neoconservative hatchet-man who became famous for his fabricated smears of Anita Hill and Hillary Clinton, who later recanted and became a whistle-blower on and debunker of the neoconservative lie machine (see "Blinded By The Right" and "The Republican Noise Machine"), was originally driven into the arms of the Gingrich-era Republican Party and its disinformation organs by his experiences at Berkeley, where he saw leftist activists using brownshirt tactics against speakers they disagreed with. I think something analogous must have happened with Ali.

[Pursuivant]

I mean should I prance about wearing clothes like this?

Of course we know AldenG's family dresses like this... on the right or the left tho?

[AldenG]

I mean should I prance about wearing clothes like this?

Oh is that no longer the fashion?

I really must start getting back more often.

Well, in the last half of July I'll get to see for myself.

[sammy]

I think something analogous must have happened with Ali.

Haven't read it, but off the top of my head I might be tempted to say that 'extremist' people tend to remain attached to the form (or matrix, if you wish) and not so much on the actual content of black-and-white, "one truth" -style of thinking which is so typical of extremist factions... that is, even if the content of thought changes quite drastically, they retain the underlying thinking patterns.

[Pursuivant]

Well you look at the career of our islamic party leader...

[AldenG]

Of course we know AldenG's family dresses like this... on the right or the left tho?

Closer than you think.

My ancestors got chased out of England for Quakerism near the end of the 1600's, landed in North Carolina near a place called Dismal Swamp, and stayed mostly Quaker up to the 1900's. So maybe halfway between right and left.

No Quaker left in me, though.

[Pursuivant]

landed in North Carolina near a place called Dismal Swamp

I guess the local property developers weren't thinking positive... I have my summer cottage on "Bog's End Road"

[Upphew]

[network_engineer]

1.

In Helsinki - a few. I'd say most immigrant women do wear the headscarf at least, and many of course also the flowing robes... but only occasionally you meet someone who also keeps her face covered. I'd presume -although it's difficult to say for sure - that those would be of the "older" generation.

Eh? Can I say a resounding NO! Immigrant women are not wearing it. Which brings me back to the first statements as to WHO is an immigrant. When was the last time you saw women from Chinese, Philippines, India, Nigeria, Ghana etc. walking behind a sackcloth(?) because the men demand her to do so? It is limited to women who are forced to comply with men who have "steadfast-morals" and "ideals". That is the problem that I am trying to address. Not immigrants. Some, few immigrants who flee from the land because the steadfast ideals they talk of have ruined their great homelands [read wastelands]. And then they try to import them here. Must be jealousy, let's turn every country into a wasteland!

2.

From an earlier post:

Another thing which came to my mind today when I was jogging... Why muslim women need to wear their odd dresses? Because Islam says so.
Let's take this to next level... Why Islam says to do so? Because Islam says that men cannot control themselves if they see any skin!
Well, this is not an issue in Finland clearly. Or most of western people... Men see lots of skin over here and it causes little to no issues in scale which would justify such odd behavior.

Now, I am worried Are "such guys with steadfast ideals" limited to women only for their human desires? Or should people start to demand swimming pools where only the locals and people of similar values are allowed... after all someone might bend over to pick up the soap. My own personal fear stems from the stories (may even be just rumors) that involves permissive interactions with goats, camels horses and donkeys and not just for their milk or meat and we are just mere males!

3.
As regards the post on the party leader: - Was that a debt relief mechanism?

“In Sharia it is said that people must not be condemned without valid evidence.

Right... poor me, I tend to read the news. Does the name "Hajiya Amina Lawal" ring a bell? Got pregnant as a result of forced sex by her ex-husband was condemned to death. Valid evidence? The remains of thousands and thousands of girls in Pakistan can tell how convincing the evidence was - against them. Even those raped are murdered because of the family honour that they carry between their legs! Like rape must be proven by three men other than the accused. Right! I am sure they would honour evidence and only then give the verdict, only thing, their honour is something can be destroyed by a muscle less than 6 inches!

[sammy]

1.

In Helsinki - a few. I'd say most immigrant women do wear the headscarf at least, and many of course also the flowing robes... but only occasionally you meet someone who also keeps her face covered. I'd presume -although it's difficult to say for sure - that those would be of the "older" generation.

Eh? Can I say a resounding NO! Immigrant women are not wearing it.

If you're foaming at the mouth, it is my fault. Naturally, I did mean those immigrant muslim women who tend to wear the robe sort of clothing, not all immigrant women. I should have been more specific.

[Karhunkoski]

Like rape must be proven by three men other than the accused.

On the subject of proof and giving testimony, the Koran declares a woman's word to be worth half that of a man, it advises that if you want two witnesses, you should take two men, if you cannot find two men, then take 1 man and two women. (Koran 2:282 for anyone who owns a copy and wants to look it up )

It sure is interesting maths that 1 man = 2 women. There again, the guidance is that a son's inheritance should be twice that of a daughter (Koran 4:11 for the bookworms)

We really need to move with the times. In years gone by, women got a tough deal in most cultures. Sticking with the subject in hand, the prophet muhammad married his bride Aisha when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage when she reached nine. Seems disgusting by today's standards, but it was quite normal in years gone by. You just can't judge yesterday by today's morals. Nor can you live today with just yesterday's laws.

It's so nice to live in a modern society, where women have much better rights than they had in the past.



Here's a man who doesn't believe in any god

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

Well you look at the career of our islamic party leader...

What next? A President who was a commie sympathiser!!??? Oh...we...all ready have one.

[sammy]

Here's a man who doesn't believe in any god

I'll go one better and say I don't believe in swimming halls