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[Karhunkoski]

That might be true but nobody can drive you crazy or an alcoholic unless you allow them to. Sorry if it sounds like I am preaching but there are very few things that one has to put up with in this country (like an alcoholic father if you're a child). It is still up to you to let the nagging hit you, it's your (one's) decision to go on drinking. At the very least you can turn your back and walk away from that person.

Exactly.

The Mrs and I had a good chat about this subject as we walked to the shop this afternoon (saw 5 alcoholics on the way ). She's had her fair share of experience with alcoholic men. "Alcoholics will blame everything and everyone but themselves". I have to agree with her.

Like most families with Finnish blood, we have both seen our fair share of alcoholics, people who have drank away houses, farms and inheritances. People who have beaten partners and children. People who have lied to friends, borrowed money without repayment and left those who cared for them with nothing but broken promises and a sense of sadness. The worst for me was seeing my "little cousins" having to find an alternative guardian in the family because their parents were deemed to f* king drunk to take care of them.

And no Hank, it's no always the man's fault. But anyone who can blame their alcoholism on a woman nagging needs to reach down into their pants and check for balls. If there's a problem in the relationship, try to solve it. If it doesn't get solved, then, as ajdias says, leave it. Blaming one's alcoholism on a woman's nagging is downright pathetic.

[NanaM]

Yup, I think the French have done extremely well as far as alcohol is concerned. They introduce their young to alcohol, encourage them to drink sensibly and involve alcohol in their "shared family meal" culture. Yes they do have a high intake per capita, but you don't see so many French males pissing their trousers in public, whilst sat on a public bench, surrounded by broken glass.

What you see is not what you get. Any student party in France is as drunken as any student party in Finland, believe me. In a so-called "integration week-end" at my school, we were about 120 : a citern truck of beer was ordered (talking about 900 litres here) and 150 litres of stronger alcool (whisky, rhum, pastis etc...). Everything was gone in a week-end, now do the maths. And it was the same kind of thing going on at every student party on the campus.

You got a point about the fact French parents usually introduce youngsters to drinking alcohol responsibly, especially wine which we learn to appreciate with food, and champagne. It just doesn't work in the long run as a lot of people in lycée (lukio) or university/engineer school fancy drinking a bit too much when they get together . We have binge drinking in France too.

Dunno about France but I don't think we have much less of an alcohol problem than Finland. Here is somehow accepted, or people expect to get away with public drinking while there is rather shameful (and hidden).

Spot on, same in France. It's not as visible as in Finland but it's there too.

[Pursuivant]

or university/engineer school fancy drinking a bit too much when they get together

Q: What is the difference between engineer student and an engineer?
A: The engineer knows you cannot drink all the booze in the world

[Pursuivant]

Wait 'til you have 3 teenaged boys.

Don't teenage girls cause more trouble?

[Karhunkoski]

Yup, I think the French have done extremely well as far as alcohol is concerned. They introduce their young to alcohol, encourage them to drink sensibly and involve alcohol in their "shared family meal" culture. Yes they do have a high intake per capita, but you don't see so many French males pissing their trousers in public, whilst sat on a public bench, surrounded by broken glass.

What you see is not what you get. Any student party in France is as drunken as any student party in Finland, believe me. In a so-called "integration week-end" at my school, we were about 120 : a citern truck of beer was ordered (talking about 900 litres here) and 150 litres of stronger alcool (whisky, rhum, pastis etc...). Everything was gone in a week-end, now do the maths. And it was the same kind of thing going on at every student party on the campus.

You got a point about the fact French parents usually introduce youngsters to drinking alcohol responsibly, especially wine which we learn to appreciate with food, and champagne. It just doesn't work in the long run as a lot of people in lycée (lukio) or university/engineer school fancy drinking a bit too much when they get together . We have binge drinking in France too.

Yes what I see is what I get. I'm extensively travelled in both France and Finland, and I have not see many French males, (quoting self), "pissing their trousers in public, whilst sat on a public bench, surrounded by broken glass.". I don't doubt that French students get pissed, but there are noticelbly less alcoholics in French streets than in Finnish streets. You missed my point, perhaps my fault, perhaps yours.

PS I respect you ability to objectively comment on the negative sides of your own country

[NanaM]

there are noticelbly less alcoholics in French streets than in Finnish streets. You missed my point, perhaps my fault, perhaps yours.

Yeah that's your point, I do agree one sees less alcoholics in the streets of France than in Finland - though Rue de la soif is said to be quite something. But it doesn't mean there are less alcoholics in France than in Finland.

You start by "I think the French have done extremely well as far as alcohol is concerned" and continue with "They encourage [their young] them to drink sensibly and involve alcohol in their "shared family meal" culture". I felt I had to nuance that a little bit, some people may think by reading your claim that France is a wonderland as it comes to managing alcohol consumption - not quite, really.

The education given by French parents about drinking may have some influence on our way to drink wine compared to the finnish way. But this influence stops when it comes to drinking other stuff (beer and others), perhaps because you don't get to drink your first beer at the pub with your parents, rather with friends or at a party. So the whole education and shared family meal stuff you said is IMO very true for wine, but sadly not true for all other alcool drinks and that's one thing I had to underline.

Student parties was the easiest example, but from that many move on to being young employed adults with the same drinking habits. Warm-ups with friends and pre-mix at home before night out, coming back completely wasted, if ever finding their way back home. It doesn't materialise as many random-walkers-pissers in the streets as in Finland but it's there too. Also we don't have the pantti system in France so you won't see any half-drunk can fairy collecting empty bottles in France to cash in a mäyräkoira. However many drink home alone their bottle of favourite vodka or whisky. Not to mention we have had a whole range of notoriously drunk artists/celebrities, how about in Finland, let alone Matti Nykänen ?

PS I respect you ability to objectively comment on the negative sides of your own country

Thanks for the fairness

[ajdias]

The education given by French parents about drinking may have some influence on our way to drink wine compared to the finnish way. But this influence stops when it comes to drinking other stuff (beer and others), perhaps because you don't get to drink your first beer at the pub with your parents, rather with friends or at a party. So the whole education and shared family meal stuff you said is IMO very true for wine, but sadly not true for all other alcool drinks and that's one thing I had to underline.

I remember being at the doctor with a flu and when we were just leaving he shouted: "And he must not drink wine".
I must have been 5 or 6 years old and yes, I had tasted wine various times (although with very low percentage) encouraged by my family.

Drinking wine is not cool with teens and students, they (we) prefer(ed) beer and stronger spirits and like NanaM says those habits go on.

[NanaM]

Drinking wine is not cool with teens and students

Understandable : it's more expensive to get drunk, you have to think about carrying a bottle opener and wine glasses, and the bottle is more difficult to hide.

[AldenG]

I've got a very good set of photos of winos from France.

Any plans to publish these?

If they're well done, there would probably be a market. If nobody else, you might get a good percentage of Charles Bukowski readers.

[AldenG]

1) nobody but an alcoholic would chose to down half a bottle of wine per day.

Not that I disagree with you in general but my old man would probably drink more than that, 6 days a week. Now he has cut it down but I am pretty sure that we'd refill that bottle (straight from the cask) 4 or more times a week and I wasn't old enough to join him. I might have seen him tipsy once, on easter day after he had some scotch, but never drunk.

Some people can drink like that and not show it. Of course it's bad for their liver and often ends up being the cause of death at some point, but that's a different kind of alcoholism. Yes, they'd show some kind of withdrawal if they suddenly quit, maybe even DTs or seizures, but they are able to cruise through life half-sloshed. They won't win a Nobel prize but their alcoholism won't necessarily be apparent to most of the people around them.

Then there are the others, the ones in whom a certain amount of alcohol, whether it's a little or a lot, cause agitation in the brain. In fact, in some cases the agitation comes not from the alcohol but from the grain used to create it; the alcohol itself simply lowers inhibitions, accentuating the problem caused by the grain proteins. But either way, the drinking causes an agitation they can't calm, and there is a need to keep drinking in a futile attempt to make the agitation go away. These are often the people who get into fights with their parents and other family members, break furniture, etc. It sounds like linda's husband is one of these.

[Pursuivant]

So that explains why the Mediterraneans are said to be "friendly" and "lively" while the Nordics are "distant" and "cold"... they're sober in the daytime.

[Cloudberry]

Im from Latin America, got married on Feb, this year. I have a son of almost 7 months old. Been with DH for over 2 years, in the beginning I had some suspicious but then sometimes he got drunk, and he always apologized and stopped drinking but then again started. He was sober for more than a month and decide to get married as I wanted to give my son a good family with a mom and a dad.

Sadly he did it again, we started going to a psychologist, but sadly it didn't help as he has never admitted having a problem...in fact he did once, but a week ago he said that it was because of the pressure me and his parents put on him.

From what I can see the guy had a problem before, he has one now and is likely to continue to have a problem. Sadly, this has only been realised after bringing an innocent baby into the mix. The only solution seems to be to move forward with your own life (since you seem to have confirmed he has an alcohol problem that you cannot/will not accept) and give your child the best life you can. I wish you all the strength and good fortune in the world, it won't be easy but it will be worth it

[Mölkky-Fan]

I must say, having been through marriage problems and life crisis's myself, I worry very much when people on these forums can seriously advise for or against decisions so important and complicated, such as divorce, alcoholism and kids' lives.
I know people who have had problems with domestic violence and alcoholism will have very clear views, but these views might not always be applicable. How can someone say that it is the right decision and best in the long run? I hope that we would treat divorce and kids with a little more respect than the headlines in a tabloid.
The couple should try and get further councelling, advice, help to try and sort out their marriage as it does not seem on the surface to be a marriage which is beyond repair. By professionals meeting the couple and trying to discuss things through openly, then a decision can be made on whether the marriage should continue, end or whatever. Remember that a lot of children's problems come from divorce (and a lot come from alcoholism/ violence/ unhappy marriages as well) so these decisions have large impacts.

[rinso]

Back to basics:

Situation A:
Husband is drinking. It is perceived as a problem (wife, parents)
Result: tension in marriage.
Solution: divorce (treatment/counselling has very little chance for success)

Situation B:
Wife is a bitch, in reaction the husband starts drinking
Result: tension in marriage
Solution: 1- counselling (might work) and treatment (if hubby is not already addicted)
2- divorce

Depending on the real situation and the source of the problems you either have no options or a small chance to save your marriage.

[Mölkky-Fan]

Maybe, but councelling via forum is no substitute to real councelling. You put two scenarios down... I would believe there are many scenarios possible from the content of the posting.

What about this scenario, which you could also get from her posting:

- Wife is very worried about the situation, and is panicing over what to do, and rightly so as first concern is the kids. She is in the wrong frame of mind to make a decent, well thought out decision. I have been there (although a different situation) and know that when things are going badly your mind does not allow you to think through clearly due to insecurity, worry, frustration, fear of failure etc. Listen to her first message:

Next Thursday I have an appointment with the social worker, she is visiting our house, last time he went to talk to them, I really dont know what he has told them, but I'm figuring out that hes managed to make them believe that Im the only problem, and its all about jealousy and control.

Im afraid that his parents might even lie to protect his son, and deny he has a problem and blame it on me and that they achieve taking my son away from me...can they do that?

please help me Im desperate!!!

I know I went through this stage, but with help I got through and things are the best they have ever been (but different)...

- Husband is making efforts, and doing OK, but needs further support as he is struggling to maintain zero alcohol level. I did not see reference to violence. Screaming and arguing: yes, but that in itself while not being great is fairly normal in marriages with problems.

- Wife has a few problems which she can also not recognise.

Maybe divorce is the best option for everyone... but it is difficult for us to judge based on content of a posting. And, just to clarify, many alcoholics (if he is one) can reform with support.