Proof of Leaving the Country

[Cathryn]

Hi, I'm new to the forum but often checked it for info when I was over there. Me and my partner lived in Helsinki from February to May 2009. We had an internet connection with Welho but they would only let us sign up for an 18 mth contract. When we left in May we were told at the Welho shop that we needed to provide proof form the Magistrate that we were leaving the country before we could cancel the contract. Since we were only there for 3 months we didn't register for residency so can anyone advise how we might prove that we no longer live in Finland. (Interestingly we were not asked for proff of residency when the contract was started). Any help would be much appreciated as we are currently raking up bills with them for a service we don't use.

[umit]

(I'm not going to dig in the matter why you made a 18 month contract while you knew you will stay here for only 3 months...) If you can't prove that you no longer live in Finland, then prove you are living somewhere else.

[biscayne]

This one might be a bit tricky, because as you never registered, you were never there in the first place, other then as a "tourist". I am assuming that you both didn't just go to Finland and stay 3 months because you felt like it (although I could be wrong). If you went for purposes of, say, doing some research in the Uni., or one of your jobs sent you to do something for a couple of months, you could try getting paperwork to that effect. If you are back in your home country, you could try using some kind of proof of residency - could be tricky if you are UK, Finnish authorities don't accept the ubiquitous "electricity bill" as proof of residence...............

[Cathryn]

My partner works in IT and needed an internet connection. Without proof of residency we could only find Welho who would sign us up to a contract but their minimum was 18 months - we didn't realise a) that we would only be in Finland for such a short length of time or b) that it would be so tricky to cancel the contract when signing up to it was made so easy.

As for why we were there, it was for work on a short term contract.

With regard to proving that we live elsewhere, I realise that that is the alternative, but I came here to seek advice as to what might be satisfactory evidence for a Finnish company.

I have also contacted Welho directly but have as yet had no response.

[Pursuivant]

Well... ummm... so if you weren't working here and didn't have ID numbers... then Welho might have a hard time proving you were in the country...

[Mook]

or perhaps even working out how to pursue you for payment...

[Cathryn]

Well... ummm... so if you weren't working here and didn't have ID numbers... then Welho might have a hard time proving you were in the country...

Ok...but surely there are ways of contacting us - such as via our old letting agents?

[daryl]

My partner works in IT and needed an internet connection. Without proof of residency we could only find Welho who would sign us up to a contract but their minimum was 18 months - we didn't realise a) that we would only be in Finland for such a short length of time or b) that it would be so tricky to cancel the contract when signing up to it was made so easy.

As for why we were there, it was for work on a short term contract.

With regard to proving that we live elsewhere, I realise that that is the alternative, but I came here to seek advice as to what might be satisfactory evidence for a Finnish company.

I have also contacted Welho directly but have as yet had no response.

You contradict yourself at the points that I have highlighted

It sounds to me as if you voluntarily entered into a contract that binds you to pay for a service for 18 months. This is no different in principle from buying a product on hire purchase and then trying to release yourself from the agreement and the duty to pay by returning the product to the vendor. I understand that many USAmericans took a similar approach to their mortgages after the economy and property market collapsed. You cannot do this in Finland.

I can see no reason why Sanoma Television Oy should release you from this contract, given that you were fully aware when concluding it that the contract period was fixed at 18 months (this bit surprises me, as Welho broadband agreements are generally for 12 months). The first 2 months of a Welho agreement are also generally free of charge, the initial connection charge is waived, and there is a 30-day reconsideration period during which an unsatisfied customer may cancel the agreement. One of the specific terms of this kind of agreement is:

Tilaus on määräaikainen, eikä sitä voi päättää ennen määräajan loppumista.

That is: the subscription is for a fixed period and may not be terminated before the end of the fixed period.

There is normally a facility for terminating such an agreement due to a social impediment to performance (sosiaalisen suoritusesteen), but this means something unexpected such as illness or involuntary unemployment.

Ja sillä siisti - and that's that.

[tuulen]

...we didn't realise a) that we would only be in Finland for such a short length of time...

...work on a short term contract...

...You contradict yourself at the points that I have highlighted...

There is normally a facility for terminating such an agreement due to a social impediment to performance (sosiaalisen suoritusesteen), but this means something unexpected such as illness or involuntary unemployment...

Apparently it's not uncommon for employers in Finland to hire on a probational or temporary basis, and so could there have been a misunderstanding on the part of the foreign employee that the IT job was only to be temporary, and not necessarily to lead to employment on a longer term basis, or to more permanent employment? In that sense, could there be legal grounds for involuntary unemployment?

Yes, I may be stretching the rules, here, but that's why I'm asking, please.

[daryl]

Apparently it's not uncommon for employers in Finland to hire on a probational or temporary basis, and so could there have been a misunderstanding on the part of the foreign employee that the IT job was only to be temporary, and not necessarily to lead to employment on a longer term basis, or to more permanent employment? In that sense, could there be legal grounds for involuntary unemployment?

Yes, I may be stretching the rules, here, but that's why I'm asking, please.

This is O/T, but I'll put my trade union hat on anyway:

There is no such thing as hiring on a probational or temporary basis. A contact of employment is normally open-ended, and may only be concluded for a limited period when there is an objective reason for doing so based on the nature or special circumstances of the work. There is a remedy for breaches of this provision of the Employment Contracts Act (paragraph 2 of section 3 of chapter 1) and any employee who fails to apply that remedy is a dangerous fool who only encourages employers to disregard the law. [Cue the usual idiotic post from Hank ...]

If a contract of employment has been lawfully concluded for a fixed period of less than eight months, then no more than half of the contract period may be probationary. Otherwise the maximum duration of a trial period is normally four months. (paragraphs 1 and 2 of section 4 of chapter 1)

Aside from the foregoing, I responded to the OP's situation based on the specific description provided. The subscriber will have the burden of proving force majeure as grounds for discharge from obligations under the broadband connection agreement. It's a long shot IMO, but one can always try.

BTW, it's pointless and irritating to copy your thread response in a PM when posters receive notification of thread replies by default.

[Upphew]

Aside from the foregoing, I responded to the OP's situation based on the specific description provided. The subscriber will have the burden of proving force majeure as grounds for discharge from obligations under the broadband connection agreement. It's a long shot IMO, but one can always try.

Ummm... dunno about Welho, but sonera automagically stops the subscription if they cannot provide the connection. One might try this angle, and give the new address to the Welho so they can try to arrange your connection..

[Pursuivant]

There is no such thing as hiring on a probational or temporary basis. A contact of employment is normally open-ended, and may only be concluded for a limited period when there is an objective reason for doing so based on the nature or special circumstances of the work.

Indeed, but I guess what Tuulen is referring to is the koeaika. When you're hired, if its not a fixed term contract, theres the 2-4 months probationary period during which either party can say "pitäkää tunkkinne". So in essence until your koeaika is over you ain't got a steady job. Gettin rid of a person in 4 months is by far easier than making a fixed-term contract as breaking that need you to stand on your head and play a flute with your ass.

Some companies are known to try to pull off fast ones. The biggest abuse of the probation period or promising a job is usually when companies are competing for a tender. The ugly part comes when they loose and they need to downsize ... Though then we get the companies rotating trainees and people on the unemployment work placements. I bet that is going to be as rife now the economys down as it was in the 90's.

[Pursuivant]

- we didn't realise a) that we would only be in Finland for such a short length of time

As for why we were there, it was for work on a short term contract.

You contradict yourself at the points that I have highlighted

Well, not necessarily. I mean it could have well been their intention to stay in Finland. See now foreigners, being... errr.. positive... would either assume that a fixed contract means you got a job (and the contract gets renewed) rather than you have a job that ends or that there is work in Finland at the moment. A lot of foreigners initially want fixed contracts and then get a spiritual orgasm finding out fixed is fixed meaning when it ends you're out but you can't get out of it menwhile, and the one without the end date is what they actually wanted...

[daryl]

Well at least it wasn't the expected idiotic post expecting somebody else to claim my rights for me, but don't you wish you had read my post to the end before making your asked and answered point?

Employer abuse of the probationary period is a particular problem with newly arrived foreign workers, who have often made substantial and uncompensated personal arrangements in the process of relocating to Finland. The government bill (HE 28/2003, page 145) for the present Aliens Act stresses that a probationary period alone is no basis for holding that the residence of a migrant worker is temporary:

Pelkkä työsopimuksessa sovittu ehto koeajasta ei olisi peruste poiketa jatkuvaluonteisen työntekijän oleskeluluvan lähtökohdasta.

This policy is helpful in preventing local employment offices from imposing unwarranted limitations on the immigration rights of migrant workers, but it also discourages those same offices from protecting the migrant worker by insisting that the employer either drops the probationary period or provides some other more substantial account of the employer's sustained need for labour.

[Cathryn]

Well, this has all got rather heated and over the top since my first post where I simply wanted to know if anyone could suggest an acceptable method of proving we no longer live in Finland! Anyway, I think that some of you might be a little too concerned about our work situation and what it may or may not have been so I will clarify a little. I didn't cintradict myself by saying it was a short term contract AND that we didn't expect to be there for such a short time, because the contract was initially for 6 months with the possibility of being extended but the work was completed sooner so it ended sooner. My partner is self-employed so it wasn't a case of probationary whatevers etc etc. Anyway, this is all beside the point and not really necessary for you all to know. As I have said, I just wanted to know what might act as sufficient proof that we noe live in the UK and not Finland. Meanwhile, amongst the squabbling, Welho have replied and are checking our accoount situation for us, so if any of you are interetested in the point of the OP I will keep you posted.