Unleashed dog (Espoo) / Staffordshire Bull Terrier

[Jan]

Our neighbour recently acquired a Staffordshire Bull Terrier. While I am a dog lover I am concerned with this particular dog as I've often seen it alone unleashed on their porch in an unfenced yard. This week it also approached me on my property as I went for the mail however the owner was outside with it and picked it up as my 2 year old hid in her baby carriage crying in fear.

I know that this has been a banned breed of dog for many years in Ontario Canada where I am from however there seems to be much conflicting information on the internet as it seems to be a wonderful family dog in many of the articles I've read. Does any one have any experience with this breed? in particular how would it be with strangers, especially children? I have 2 children, one of which naps outside, and I am fearful of the dog straying onto our property. Unfortunately we have a long driveway which spans the length of the neighbour's front and back yards so it is impossible to access our house without going past the dog if it is outside.

Does anyone know what rights I have as a neighbour if the dog is unleashed on their unfenced property and what I can do about it? I haven't approached the neighbour yet about my concerns as I want to gather all the facts first to see what, if anything, I can do.

[Upphew]

Our neighbour recently acquired a Staffordshire Bull Terrier. While I am a dog lover I am concerned with this particular dog as I've often seen it alone unleashed on their porch in an unfenced yard. This week it also approached me on my property as I went for the mail however the owner was outside with it and picked it up as my 2 year old hid in her baby carriage crying in fear.

Urban area or not, dogs can't legally be kept free on other people's property, without asking permit. Don't teach your child to fear dogs, or other animals. Barking or growling dog isn't necessarily angry or attacking, but child or adult running away in panic might launch it into attack, especially hunting or fighting breed.

I know that this has been a banned breed of dog for many years in Ontario Canada where I am from however there seems to be much conflicting information on the internet as it seems to be a wonderful family dog in many of the articles I've read. Does any one have any experience with this breed? in particular how would it be with strangers, especially children? I have 2 children, one of which naps outside, and I am fearful of the dog straying onto our property. Unfortunately we have a long driveway which spans the length of the neighbour's front and back yards so it is impossible to access our house without going past the dog if it is outside.

Its sad when breed is banned because of bad owners. I hope we can keep that kind of stupidity at bay.
Some info from Finnish breed association: http://www.staffordshirenbullterrieriyh ... teesta.htm
It seems that Staffs are playful dogs that have sense to even tone down their use of force when playing with kids.

Does anyone know what rights I have as a neighbour if the dog is unleashed on their unfenced property and what I can do about it? I haven't approached the neighbour yet about my concerns as I want to gather all the facts first to see what, if anything, I can do.

You can call police. http://www.poliisi.fi/poliisi/home.nsf/ ... endocument

[network_engineer]

Hi all,

Okay, back on the forum after quite a long while (was on a project) and many posts to read!

To answer your question at a general level: Very rarely is the breed the problem, it almost always is the owner. If it were a car, you wouldn't worry about the make, but the driver, in this case the owner. However, that being said, in every breed, it is down to the individual specimen and its temperament based on a lot of factors on how it behaves:

- genes play a very important role, i.e. the temperaments of the sire and dam
- the training it has received
- the environment in which it has been kept
- the environment in which it has been trained
- its relationship to its handler
- etc.

Most people wouldn't know this, but even in a litter of pups from a good dam and sire, there are few pups that should be kept or handled only by very experienced owners. The only problem with big dogs versus small ones is that bigger (bigger and muscular, not just fat) and more agile the dog, the more harm it can inflict. I have seen daschunds and corgies with horrible manners and tempers (and fear biters too) and rottweilers and tosas that are absolutely safe to be around.

With regard to your particular case, you could just go ahead and tell your neighbour that you feel worried for the safety of your child and yourself and ask them to build a sensible fence to secure their dog. I say sensible since this breed is quite agile and an accomplished escape artist. And I would assume that they are reasonable people and would take the appropriate measures.

Although, I currently have a mid-size Dalmatian, I have a lot of experience with dogs, including guard dogs. Having trained big, muscular and agile dogs, here's what I would advise: If the above does not work, combined with not knowing the temperament of this particular specimen, would advise you to take extreme caution, and if need be, inform the authorities and (yeah, "and" not "or") build a VERY SECURE* fence for your child to play in. Upphew is totally right when he says, any large and agile breed should be totally banned for inexperienced or bad owners.

The above being said, I am very interested in a few things:
- how old is the dog?
- in what manner did the dog approach you and your child?
- how did it react to the sound of your child crying?
- in what manner did the owner attempt to recall it?
- how did it react to the owner reeling it in?

Kind regards.

* If you want to know more about a secure fence, ask, it is not just a fence that can hold up. These breeds are very determined, if they find something inquisitive, they will dig their way in.

[interleukin]

But assuming the neighbour is not easy to interact with, can one really force someone else to invest time and money in a fence on their own lawn just because their neighbour does not like their dog? As long as the dog stays on its "own" lawn, would you not be stuck? And forced to build the fence yourself? I also have a hard time seeing that the police would prioritise very highly a call from someone complaining that there is a dog on the dog owner's lawn.

All this said, I can really understand why the OP is nervous, I would be.

[network_engineer]

You are right, if the dog is unleashed on the owner's property, it is obviously not a problem. The moment it oversteps the boundary, especially with a small child in the vicinity, it becomes a BIG problem.

"Depending on the dog's temperament and its training (or lack of it thereof), it is likely to view the area that it is allowed to roam freely as its territory something that it has the right to defend". You see, dogs don't see or understand the boundary lines of the property drawn by the county.

I would not have said this if it were e.g. a Jack Russell terrier (yes, I know, even JRT can injure children/babies too), but here's the thing: This particular breed:

+ extremely agile
+ muscular
+ mid-to-large size
+ powerful jaws

- unknown temperament (I assume it excites easily since it easily moved towards the OP)
- we do not know much of its environment
- unleashed

More we do not know, which is why I asked additional questions. Combine this with a toddler (I am assuming it is a toddler since the OP mentioned a pram) who was already petrified and will soon learn to walk or run and no matter what amount of training is given, one can almost imagine a perfect recipe for deadly disaster, i.e. in the worst case scenario and if you were extra cautious like me.

The owner does not sound experienced if they would let a *new* dog that they have just acquired off without a leash. If the owner is not easy to talk to, find a Finnish translator. Leave a registered letter. Or then approach the police. If all fail, I would suggest a fence and even then extreme caution.

[onkko]

Dogs must be kept on a leash in built-up areas. A built-up area is a densely built area indicated by traffic signs. Within built-up areas there can, however, be areas which are not densely built.

taajama is between and signs.

[Upphew]

But assuming the neighbour is not easy to interact with, can one really force someone else to invest time and money in a fence on their own lawn just because their neighbour does not like their dog?

Short answer: no, especially as one needs permit for the fence... afaik Capitol counties are more anal about building regulations, so I wouldn't just build a fence there. On the other hand, if the dog is kept free and bites someone owner can be forced to take action. But it needs that escalation to the biting. :/
If the neighbour is hard to interact with, how about finding the breeder or someone from http://www.staffordshirenbullterrieriyhdistys.fi/ to help with handling and interaction with that particular breed.

As long as the dog stays on its "own" lawn, would you not be stuck? And forced to build the fence yourself? I also have a hard time seeing that the police would prioritise very highly a call from someone complaining that there is a dog on the dog owner's lawn.
All this said, I can really understand why the OP is nervous, I would be.

As long as the dog stays on it's own lawn there is no problem?

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

about the dog...I'm actually from the same county as those fellas and have a fair few mates who have them.

Staffs have a bad reputation which is ill deserved...They are friendly and loving towards humans and especially with kids, they're as daft as a brush. If you have a dog yourself, then you might wanna watch for that...they are aggressive towards other dogs...they are pit dogs after all.

But as has been mentioned, with the wrong owner...well...it's anyones guess what that individual dog is like.

Are they really banned in Canada? Are you sure it's not AmStaffs?

[Jan]

Thanks to all for the response.

Yes, they truly are banned in Ontario and have been since 2005. The Ontario Dog Owners Liability Act bans all new pit bulls in the province and defines a pit bull to include Staffordshire Bull Terriers as well as American Staffordshire Terriers, American pit bull terriers, amongst others. Some dogs were grandfathered under the Act which allowed owners to keep their dogs but they are responsible to ensure they are muzzled, leashed and neutered.

It would appear that the owner is an 18 year old girl as she seems to be the only one in the household that I have ever seen with the dog so I would say she is inexperienced. I think she got the dog as a puppy in May or June.

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

Thanks to all for the response.

Yes, they truly are banned in Ontario and have been since 2005. The Ontario Dog Owners Liability Act bans all new pit bulls in the province and defines a pit bull to include Staffordshire Bull Terriers as well as American Staffordshire Terriers, American pit bull terriers, amongst others. Some dogs were grandfathered under the Act which allowed owners to keep their dogs but they are responsible to ensure they are muzzled, leashed and neutered.

Off topic....that's a shame as the Staff is not a pit bull....pit bulls are hybrids and have Staff in them, but the Staff itself isn't a pit bull, although they are still used as pit dogs. The difference between an AmStaff and pit bull is confusing, last I read some organisations consider them the same animal with a different name and some said it's actually a different (hybrid) dog.

The confusion between the AmStaff and pit bull has done a lot to damage the reputation of the Staff as the AmStaff uses the term "Staffordshire" in it's name.

You see a lot of Staffs in Finland, or at least my area, and they are pretty placid...But still, I would be cautious...as other posters said any dog can bite a small, excited, panicy child or adult, and with the Staffs jaw strength...it could be nasty. They were built to kill remember.

[joanmanuel]

well, as a general advice I would said not to be too confident with an unleashed dog, sometimes it is better to be safe than sorry and keep an eye on your baby; I have witnessed myself a lot of cases of child desfiguration due to these "calm" and "placid" dogs; and by the way if it attacks your baby maybe you have to do something like this:


one think that I agree is that it also depends on how he dog has been raised, but as long as I do not know or willing to ask, I prefer to take prevention measures
good luck!

[Upphew]

well, as a general advice I would said not to be too confident with an unleashed dog, sometimes it is better to be safe than sorry and keep an eye on your baby;
...
one think that I agree is that it also depends on how he dog has been raised, but as long as I do not know or willing to ask, I prefer to take prevention measures
good luck!

Confident with dog doesn't mean that you rush to pet and stroke a dog. Thats overconfidence which worse than insecurity. Imnsho you don't let kids to play with dog unsupervised, especially dogs who you don't know. And even then the dog should know his place in the pack, which a familiar dog should already know.

There is a difference with preventative measures. You can do much more harm if you overdo it, 9/11 anyone?

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

Uppy: You HAVE been watching those dogs training programmes...

[Tiwaz]

I did a little memory refreshing...

What has been said about dogs and densely built areas has been handled here.

To sum it up though, dog in densely built area MUST be kept in leash.
It must be leashed when on jogging track or similar.
You MUST make sure it is not able AT ALL to reach public beach, child's playground, marketplace during market or few other locations unless specifically permitted.

Outside densely built areas, dogs MUST be leashed from 1swt of March to 19th of August or held in such way that it can be immediately leashed.

This does not apply to dog which is in yard or garden with permission of owner, or keeping dog in fenced area reserved for keeping a dog.
Dog younger than 5 months.
Dog herding, guiding, on guard duty or similar service duties.
Dog owned by police, customs, army etc.
Or dog being trained for tasks above.

There is possibility of keeping dog free outside these limitations for hunting/hunting training purposes. However, this was not in your example the case.

So, in essence. You can tell your neighbor to keep her dog to herself. Should she fail to do so, few calls to police (they will come when they have nothing more pressing to do) should sort it out sooner or later.

This may not be very beneficial in terms of neighborhood love, but if I was in your position I would not give a damn about neighbors hurt feelings when my kids would be at risk.

[inkku]

One of the many stories in the UK below (sorry not very encouraging). Sometime ago there was another incident where two dogs, the other one was a Russell Terrier, mauled a baby to death, the baby had been sleeping on the table.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... riers.html

Jan, i sincerely hope your neighbour gets the beat leashed. I am really disgusted that these dogs are even allowed.