infertility treatment

[Tiwaz]

*sigh*

So how about someone explaining why telling the facts is "belligerent" and "evil".
I stated why she was refused treatment, what is logic behind it and why alternatives offered are not going to be very likely to work.

I find it far more belligerent and evil to try to get hopes up high for OP just for her to have her dreams crushed when some magic solution (8000% effective... Imagine that! It not only cures all cases where there is risk but cures on top of it 80 cases where treatment is not even given!) found in Canada is not available in Finland because it is considered not to be worth it.

I, unlike you people, have actually given two possibilities which CAN work. Namely having her egg fertilized with sperm of her husband and carrier by another woman to term. After which child can be given reasonably good protection against Hep B she carries.
This is not going to be easy, as I have stated, because it requires someone who is willing to carry out the pregnancy and birth and give up the child after that.
OR, join up in the adoption line.

[ipmchootie]

I wish we can stop arguing from now on. People coming here to look for advise, share their own experience. All we're doing here is to make things better. I think we don't need your judgment on question itself or even poster herself. Apparently, some people don't really realize the meaning why the question is here. Have you even think how you gonna react about if you're the person who's eager for a baby for a long time? Have you ever feel deeply how others feel?

As for hepatitis B, it's very common in the world. (If you like wiki, please wiki the other language versions instead of engligh, finnish.) It's also very common and well fertility treatment exists for carriers in the world. What it the truth or valid matter? No one needs the truth that you believe from here. We just need everyone's "advise".

As for resource, people pay tax and have social benefits from the government. Everyone has the right to have any medical help if they need. I've seen more medical resource wasting on those drunk people. Have you ever think about what's real waste?

Please stop judging that now. All she knows now is there is one option at Vaesteliitto.

[Pursuivant]

People want to hear what they want to hear. They get upset someone says the facts.

[biscayne]

Ok, well, I suppose for want of anybody better, I AM the forum "fertility" expert (RN,MN,MSc,gen - I know Finns love their degrees, so hopefully that will do for the Finnish readers!!)

Briefly, worked in Genetics/IVF for a long, long time, just having a sabbatical now for a post-grad, back to work in December.

Look, Tiwaz actually is pretty much on the ball. Most countries (speaking for Europe here) won't touch you with a barge-pole if you are a hep B carrier - for why, see Tiwaz's posting. A lot of European countries provide some fertility treatment on the national health service, usually up to 3 treatments "free" - ie: paid for by your taxes, and then you start paying your own treatments. But, as I previously wrote, they run a battery of tests to exclude people, and hep B is a big no no. The risks are just not deemed to be worth it. In terms of private, did a little hunting and asking around, and mainly got a lot of unwillingness for any of my contacts to say their institutions would take on a hep B carrier. As Tiwaz suggested, the donor egg/surrogate mother route is what was suggested. But, realistically you are talking USA here, which means massive expense, as you would have to basically "buy" the egg and pay the surrogate. Usually.

Disclaimer: this is MY experience of working in the area, it could be that some countries do NOT exclude Hep B carriers, I am not aware of that, but it could be the case.

And I am very, very sorry for the OP. As anyone who has experienced infertility or problems with starting a family will know, it is simply devastating, and starts you on what is usually a long road of treatments and often, subsequent dissapointments. Many people have (thankfully) happy endings with IVF, but in general the success rate is actually less than 30%.

[biscayne]

Oh, and again, yes Tiwaz is right about persons being either over or underweight being excluded from treatment. Now before Sean gets on calling me a "fattist", the reason is that very underweight women may not be having regular or indeed any cycles, and gaining a bit of healthy weight can reverse that, giving them a normal cycle which may lead to spontaneous conception. For the obese client, there is a whole hormonal issue going on, certain hormones are converted into a type of estrogen which is released too steadily into the body and "blunts" the phases of the cycle, making it hard to get pregnant. And such a person would probably require a lot of "tries" at IVF (again, I say "probably"), which could be deemed a "waste" of resources in countries where the IVF is paid or partially paid for by the health service.

[mikkolover]

Hi fat ass 'obese' IVF patient here. For both TIWAZ and the Rn's information, it was one doctor at OYS who said I was too fat, even though my BMI is well under what it should be to be considered obese, and it was actually an issue with my husband that was preventing me from getting pregnant, something the doctors at OYS failed to consider completely as in their 'eyes' I was simply too fat and that HAD to be the reason. There are actual people out there who have a number of reasons for not getting pregnant, and even an 'RN' should know better, but that isn't an expert on fertility now is it!

[biscayne]

Hang on a minute, nobody called you "fatass", and I don't know your particular situation, but as you said, it was not your BMI, but actually an issue with your husband which was causing a problem.

What I was trying to say, was that severe obesity can cause a conversion of other hormones in the female body to be converted into a specific type of estrogen which can be released too freely into the body and can cause interference in the cycle leading to possible fertility problems. I was simply trying to explain why some countries which have IVF on the national health services, don't treat the severely obese. None of this is related to your specific case, and I am very happy for your good outcome.

And obviously, we both know, that many women who are overweight become pregnant without any type of intervention. I was simply trying to explain why it is that IVF clinics who treat using public funds often don't treat the severely obsese, because that is actually a fact. Where I work, there is about an 80 kilo cut off, depending upon height and build. The client would be referred to the clinic which deals with nutrition and weight loss, and actually, losing just a small amount of weight, even 5kg, will increase the chances hugely. Again, very happy for your outcome, and please don't imagine my posting was anything to do with you. I was just offering an explaination, as to why some people are turned down, same for the Hep B situation.

[biscayne]

and even an 'RN' should know better, but that isn't an expert on fertility now is it!

I am an RN and proud to be, but MN means "master of nursing" and Msc gen means "master of science, genetics", and my area of specialty within that is the genetics of infertility. But, no, I am not an OB/GYN or and embryologist.

[EP]

My neighbour was among the first ones in Finland who got infertility treatment. They had been trying eight long years. She got pregnant on the third try. After their daughter was born they went on "business as usual" because they didn´t need any contraceptives. After all, she could not get pregnant normally. After a year she gave birth to a boy, and again after three years another boy. She went on a pill because by that time she was 43.

I am sorry for the OP. I know it is easy to say "don´t try so much", but in some cases that seems to help.

[Tiwaz]

Hi fat ass 'obese' IVF patient here. For both TIWAZ and the Rn's information, it was one doctor at OYS who said I was too fat, even though my BMI is well under what it should be to be considered obese, and it was actually an issue with my husband that was preventing me from getting pregnant, something the doctors at OYS failed to consider completely as in their 'eyes' I was simply too fat and that HAD to be the reason. There are actual people out there who have a number of reasons for not getting pregnant, and even an 'RN' should know better, but that isn't an expert on fertility now is it!

You do not have to be clinically obese. However, if you bothered to read, assuming you can read Finnish, in the article I provided they clearly state here:

Hoitoja ja tutkimuksia ei tarjota, mikäli nainen on täyttänyt 40 vuotta. Hoitojen ennustetta
huonontaviin elämäntapoihin (tupakointi, päihteiden käyttö, merkittävä yli- ja alipaino)
tulee tehdä muutos ennen hoitoihin pääsyä. Lisäksi pariskunnalta tutkitaan veriteitse
tarttuvat taudit (HIV, hepatiitit B ja C).

And again here

Selkeä yli- tai alipainoisuus on syytä korjata. Painon selkeä
poikkeavuus voi itsessään olla lapsettomuuden syy, ja lisäksi yli- ja alipainoisuus
vaikeuttavat hoitojen toteuttamista ja onnistumista. Tämän vuoksi paino tulee saada
hallintaan ennen lapsettomuushoitojen aloittamista.

I'll give you rough overview. They state that any condition related to habits, smoking, use of drugs, notable over or underweight, must be fixed BEFORE access to treatment.

So, let's explain this simply. Doctor saw that you were significantly enough overweight, which in itself does not prevent successful IVF treatment, but reduces the odds of success notably.

Thus, they expected you to lose weight before any more of your and states money and time was wasted.

Once you would have lost your excess weight, there is little doubt that doctor would have proceeded with other examinations and found out that fault was in your husband.

They did not want to treat you because through living habits you had condition which significantly reduced chances of treatment to work. That it did work is not proof in itself, because point is that your condition reduced the chances. So if they started wasting resources on too fat people, they would get even more failures in treatments than they do now, and thus would be wasting resources. At the same time potentially preventing couple who does NOT have lifestyle issues reducing their chance to succeed from getting their treatment.


We have so long lines for fertility treatments that it is not reasonable to waste resources on those who are unwilling to take responsibility to make certain that they are as good candidates for treatment to succeed as possible.

That means, if you are fat, you are disqualified. If you smoke, you are disqualified. If you use drugs, you are disqualified. If you are underweight, you are disqualified.
You want in? Lose/gain weight, drop smoking, drop drugs. Live healthy lifestyle. Too much to ask that you actually have healthy lifestyle which gives best chance for IVF to succeed?

[biscayne]

I can understand where you are coming from Cory, but I'm going to do what my Finnish SO always used to do when he said something unpalatable or politically incorrect "BUT IT'S FACT".......................... he always used to say that and could never understand why people were upset, when from his point of view he was just stating a fact, and I think that's what Tiwaz (don't know if it is a he or a she) was trying to do.

Unfortunately for those folks experiencing problems, there are cut offs, and exclusions if you don't fit the "picture". It is awful for the people going through the situation, but the sad fact is, that when there are limited public resources for services, there will always be "rules", and, not that Tiwaz needs me to speak for him/her, but he/she was just factually telling what the exclusions for IVF are in Finland. (on the public service), I honestly don't feel he/she was being rude, just factual. Where I work, 40 is also the cut off age, you can't be a smoker, over 80 kg (generally) or have hep B, Hiv and a few other things to boot. I must say, that I do think that they will have to up the age limit soon, these days 40 is often the age when people START trying for a baby, as it's hard to meet people and settle down, get career organised etc., and we live in an era of prolonged youth, a lot of people are only ready for a baby at 40! So my guess is they will up it to 45, especially in countries with low birth rates.

[Upphew]

Never should/would you find a doctor/health care worker giving advice without full disclaimers on an open forum. Whether a layman is "right" or "wrong" is no matter, really.

Yes it is, if the advice or information is wrong and someone acts upon that, weather it is bursting a vein when demanding infertility treatment when none is available or not going to hospital when some xenophobe says that one is a leech and not entitled to any health care when one is.

[biscayne]

I did not offer any advice, in any capacity, I only was trying to explain why the OP had had problems being accepted into the public programme for IVF, as the OP did not seem to have gotten much information (whether that was a language or service issue I don't know). People do usually like reasons or explainations, and that is all I was trying to do. She seemed bewildered by the experience, and after all, she did go on the forum looking for information - in much the same way OPs go on the forum looking for information about other things, albeit, the issue is much more sensitive. She was refused treatment for a specific reason, and some respondents, myself included, simply offered an explaination as to why that happened, again, as the place she went to did not seem to have explained much. I hope that the OP will have a happy outcome, wherever or whenever that might be.

[biscayne]

I have re-read my posts on this issue again, and I have only offered an explaination as to why the OP was refused. I have mentioned that Hep B carriers MIGHT be treated in some other countries/clinics, but have not suggested she go there. Again, my posts were in the way of explaination, and again, I wish her a happy outcome and a longed-for baby.

[J.Honkanen]

To the OP, if you are still watching this thread...

I would advise you to think long and hard about bringing a child into this world who has a very high likelyhood of contracting Hep B from you if you carry the baby yourself. Do you really want that for your child? Think about it, every parent wants to limit the amount of suffering their child has to endure, why add to it from the very beginning?

Someone mentioned something to the effect of "letting the couple choose to bring a baby into this world, it is the couple's coice" or something like that... too lazy too look it up right now. Think about this... although it is ultimately up to the couple to weigh the pro's and con's of the situation and then make an informed decision, it should not be about weather or not the couple wants a baby, it should be about the quality of life they can provide for the child. IMHO, intentionally bringing a child with a high likely hood of contracting Hep B into this world is a very selfish thing to do. Why not adopt as someone else suggested? There are plenty of kids out there who need a loving home. A child does not have to be yours biologically to be part of your family.

As a mother, I can empathise with wanting to have your "own" biological children and carry them to term. It is a different experience than adopting a child who is already here and has no biological ties to you. But, consider the life your baby would lead if it had Hep B with very little chance of "recovery". I personally would not want that for my child.

Just my 2 cents.... take it or leave it.