Social Class

[Jukka Aho]

And yes - Vesa Keskinen - happened to flip through the HS Monhtly Mag article on him and his "estate" - couldn't believe my eyes.



One is rendered speechless. And that's just the fr|gging shop. You should see his private mansion :wink:

That's the facade of the grocery store + liquor store + a couple of restaurants + a small hotel. I think that’s only the first phase and he has at least originally planned for an extension since the right side/wing is kinda missing still.

The actual “village shop” is on the other side, not accessible to the public from that side, though they’re the opposite sides of the same large building complex. Its facade is completely different:

[sammy]

The actual “village shop” is on the other side, not accessible to the public from that side, though they’re the opposite sides of the same large building complex. Its facade is completely different:

Ah, ok. I stand corrected - I've never been to the place. The village shop does look a bit more traditional

However, exhibit A still looks like something that King Ludwig "mad-as-a-hatter-and-then-some" of Bavaria might have dreamt up if he had felt the urge to move to Ostrobothnia and become a grocery store keeper. Although to old Ludwig's defense it must be said that at least the Neuschwanstein Castle kind of suits the scenery.

[llewellyn]

An interesting subject. I have always felt quite classless - or rather like a Southern Ostrobothnian, the Province I think is bit peculiar in Finland as regards the social and cultural structures. You are expected to be selfconfident and proud of yourself whatever your means. This certain Southern Finnish bitter "herraviha" almost in the style of 1918 Reds feels quite strange to (you get it especially in old factory towns where you really did use to have bitter class divides, and not because of your accent or table manners but because your father or uncle was shot by the father of your classmate - quite different from Southern Ostrobothnia where "everyone" joined the Whites). My parents were quite poor, ordinary working people but there was an enormous respect for books and education (and priests, of course) - the school system was open and didn't cost anything, so my generation in my family has been quite busily upwardly mobile socially, or rather educationally. But really, I would never think about anyone's "class", the whole concept seems exotic - and the British society bit bizarre with its myriad little distinctions.

[Pursuivant]

I have always felt quite classless

Thats evident...

/check please!

[llewellyn]

I have always felt quite classless

Thats evident...

/check please!

Luokattomana on hyvä olla! Olla vaan ja antaa olla...

[Pursuivant]

minäkään ole mistään kotosin

[TampereOwl]

But really, I would never think about anyone's "class", the whole concept seems exotic - and the British society bit bizarre with its myriad little distinctions.

Exotic? Never heard it described like that before......

I guess we see things like that because we still have the aristocratic system. There are still a sizeable number of people in the upper house of the British parliament who got there because they inherited a title. I have seen very little Herraviha in Southern Finland, but a hell of a lot of junttiviha and kepuviha. I guess that's why I am looking at someone like keskinen and asking what he is seen as, because he is absolutely not posh (although classless would be quite a good description of him, I guess). The Hurriviha is everywhere, too....

[Pursuivant]

But then again y'all in tampere have a "turkulaisviha" that we in helsinki just disregard them as inferiors but you really got a beef then again y'all hate helsinki peoples so thats equal... and we regard anything beyond ring III a welshman...

[FinnGuyHelsinki]

I have seen very little Herraviha in Southern Finland, but a hell of a lot of junttiviha and kepuviha. I guess that's why I am looking at someone like keskinen and asking what he is seen as, because he is absolutely not posh (although classless would be quite a good description of him, I guess). The Hurriviha is everywhere, too....

I don't think it's a matter of class (as in a class system), as money is just about the only thing that gets inherited in Finland, as opposed to e.g. titles, positions etc. someone would get as a birthright. Of course there is the background, the networks etc. parents have but it's more a matter of what's familiar and how the upbringing affects one's life and choices taken. Society does not advocate any class distinctions, rather more the opposite.

There's no denying that Vesa Keskinen has worked for the money he has, albeit the business has run in the family. Much of what is written about him is related to his private life and sometimes somewhat eccentric behavior. Someone might call it showing off, but it's not that uncommon from someone who has means to do that. His bachelor lifestyle also keeps the tabloids interested. There's no background that he could have that would make much difference in all that.

[sinikala]

The absence of an aristocracy or a visible upper class does not mean that Finland lacks a class system.

If it didn´t Finland´s Minister for foreign affairs would not be in his current job. And in due course it will result in him being appointed PM or president... my guess is he´ll go for the former.

Over drinks with one of my former students, he told how "noble" and "good guy" (sic) another of my former students is... the latter apparently being from some decent Swedish family, complete with Atredies style ducal signet ring. It took me a little aback to hear a lower middle class Finn speak so reverentially almost in awe of the second guy´s class. Talking about someone who was nominally and academically his equal. I have no doubt that the forelock tugging Finn was the financial inferior of his esteemed Swedish speaking colleague, but it blew out of the water any misconception I may have had about this being a classless society.

By the UK definition as the OP was asking, most Finns are working or middle class, and certainly fit into the A, B, C1, .. social grade classification / framework still used in the UK today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_str ... of_Britain
FWIW, my wife (a Finn who went to one of the better schools in Hki) and I are by the UK definition both B´s. Whilst all of our parents started out as C2 and both our fathers elevated themselves to C1.

By the US income definition we´re upper-middle class
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_cla ... es#Markers
which is in my case, by UK standards, utter nonsense, as I didnt´t go to the right sort of school for that ´... emphasis on the importance of the school, not so much the Uni.

As EP was strugging to understand how paying for her son´s taxi driving training was something that might be beyond a good proportion of her countrymen ... it reminded me of one of my wife´s classmates from highschool ...

Decades of socialist taxation policy have redistributed the wealth from the upper middle to the working classes, but as Hank intimated, there is still old money here. As a wedding present, my wife´s friends parents bought her an apartment downtown. I supoose that allowed her to pursue a prestigious, but not so financially rewarding career, safe in the knowledge that she´d never have to find money for rent so long as she lived.

No class system? To quote the great social commentator, James Royle ...


"My arse!"

[FinnGuyHelsinki]

The absence of an aristocracy or a visible upper class does not mean that Finland lacks a class system.

You understand that you're pretty much talking about money there, right? Surely money can open doors anywhere, if you have enough, but I don't think that is the same as having a class system. There will always be some form of categorization of people, if not for anything else then at least constructing a view of the surrounding world and statistics. There's nothing that prevents someone from doing something, if they're capable; in some cases there are quotas based on sex, language,... but it is very rare that any opportunity would be exclusively for any part of the population.

[littlefrank]

Finland and class



And here comes Mika he is a famous bus driver he lives over the Pitkäsilta in Kallio, he and his wife are wearing matching blue track suits...

[sinikala]

The absence of an aristocracy or a visible upper class does not mean that Finland lacks a class system.
You understand that you're pretty much talking about money there, right?

That a person in the upper echelons of a society has a higher probability of having a big wad of cash than a person at the bottom of the class ladder is not really surprising is it? The two go hand in hand. But no, I'm not talking exclusively about money, I'm talking about the class system.

To continue with the example I used earlier, a class system that allows some to go and study in the Sorbonne and LSE (something really open to very few Finns), be elected to the EU and become the 3rd most powerful political player in his country, all on little more than a toothy grin and a decent family background.

Surely money can open doors anywhere, if you have enough, but I don't think that is the same as having a class system.

It isn't, that's why I'm talking about the class system. You are talking about wealth. In most societies wealth alone will be insufficient to move you to the top of the social scale, those already at the top will always consider the Nouveau Riche with a degree of disdain, but it will help in moving their children there.

There's nothing that prevents someone from doing something, if they're capable; in some cases there are quotas based on sex, language,... but it is very rare that any opportunity would be exclusively for any part of the population.

You are talking in absolutes: "prevention" "exclusively"; that's why you miss the point. It's not a case or royalty and serfs and "Never the twain shall meet", it's a stacking of the odds in favour of those who have (status, or status and wealth) and against those who don't. In that respect, Finland is little different to other societies, it's just with decades of nominally socialist rule, it's a little more concealed here.

And on Frank's reference to "Linnan juhlat": that's another good example ... the plebs who have managed to drag themselves up by their bootstraps are "honoured" by getting the once in a lifetime experience of rubbing shoulders for an evening with the valtioneuvos and vuorineuvos types. Tsss.

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

And on Frank's reference to "Linnan juhlat": that's another good example ... the plebs who have managed to drag themselves up by their bootstraps are "honoured" by getting the once in a lifetime experience of rubbing shoulders for an evening with the valtioneuvos and vuorineuvos types. Tsss.

And proving that there is "no class system in Finland" as "anyone can go!" - yawn.

[littlefrank]

And on Frank's reference to "Linnan juhlat": that's another good example ... the plebs who have managed to drag themselves up by their bootstraps are "honoured" by getting the once in a lifetime experience of rubbing shoulders for an evening with the valtioneuvos and vuorineuvos types. Tsss.

And proving that there is "no class system in Finland" as "anyone can go!" - yawn.

Theoretically anyone can be invited to Queens garden parties, proving that Britain is a classless and a egalitarian society? The thing is, while Mika and his wife stand in a corner nervously sipping their champagne and nibbling their vol au vents, the majority at this event will just see it has an extension of their social life i.e. meeting the people they usually meet and using the occasion for extending their social network... Mika will go back to driving his bus, his wife will go back to balancing the bills, while the 'elite' will be busy arranging future dinner parties and lunches to reinforce their social connections.