Social Class

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

The castle booze up gets discussed a lot at this time of year. It's quite funny that a lot of my groups will say "anyone can go, it's not about class etc" ...When I ask them if they would go, they often say "yes, it would be nice to see how the 'better half' live!".

Wish they'd make their minds up...!!!!

[onkko]

The castle booze up gets discussed a lot at this time of year. It's quite funny that a lot of my groups will say "anyone can go, it's not about class etc" ...When I ask them if they would go, they often say "yes, it would be nice to see how the 'better half' live!".

Wish they'd make their minds up...!!!!

Well bubba 50y ago you would have been upper class like priest

[sinikala]

The castle booze up gets discussed a lot at this time of year. It's quite funny that a lot of my groups will say "anyone can go, it's not about class etc" ...When I ask them if they would go, they often say "yes, it would be nice to see how the 'better half' live!".

Wish they'd make their minds up...!!!!

On 1 in 5 million chance I'd ever be invited, I'd want to turn it down, but I'm sure the missus would like to go for curiosity's sake, it would be harsh of me to deny her that.

Similarly, in the 1 in 60 million chance I'd be up for the UK honours list, I'd want to knock that back, unless the missus got a chance of a visit to Buck House.

Well bubba 50y ago you would have been upper class like priest

Anyone know what this is? Class? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone seen this before?

[onkko]

Well bubba 50y ago you would have been upper class like priest

Anyone know what this is? Class? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone seen this before?

Thats kinda class, more like that priests were and are well educated but anyone could be a priest.
There is/was some respect about your education but that didnt make you any better, if you try that it will hurt. Common stuff was and is to make "better" to do work, he may know how to count but...

[FinnGuyHelsinki]

To continue with the example I used earlier, a class system that allows some to go and study in the Sorbonne and LSE (something really open to very few Finns), be elected to the EU and become the 3rd most powerful political player in his country, all on little more than a toothy grin and a decent family background.

So do you think a person's social status in Finland is more achieved or ascribed? I don't think there is a place in the world where the parents' background wouldn't affect the probability of certain aspects of the life of their children. Maybe we don't see the term 'class system' similarly, I tend to think it referring to class distinctions not only accepted but upheld by society, along with commonly understood differences in rights and behavior. People can be categorized by many qualities and as such be put into 'classes', however IMO that fact doesn't equal a class society.

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

On 1 in 5 million chance I'd ever be invited, I'd want to turn it down, but I'm sure the missus would like to go for curiosity's sake, it would be harsh of me to deny her that.

Yeah...I think that would happen to me also. But then again she probably wouldn't want to associate with the plebs.

My suit doesn't fit...and I would be reluctant to buy (or rent) a new one just for that.

[sinikala]

So do you think a person's social status in Finland is more achieved or ascribed? I don't think there is a place in the world where the parents' background wouldn't affect the probability of certain aspects of the life of their children. Maybe we don't see the term 'class system' similarly, I tend to think it referring to class distinctions not only accepted but upheld by society, along with commonly understood differences in rights and behavior. People can be categorized by many qualities and as such be put into 'classes', however IMO that fact doesn't equal a class society.

What do you mean by ascribed? Inherited perhaps?

Social status can be earned, I never said it can´t ... but the likelyhood of being able to earn a high social status is greatly enhanced if your family has a high social standing to start with.

Another example is the current PM ... the guy took 15 years to get his Master´s degree ... there´s taking the scenic route and then there´s taking the piss. The fact that his father was an influential professor of political science didn´t open any doors for him, did it? No siree.

As mentioned by Bubba, the desire to attend the Independence day ball ...to see how the other half lives.... to me ahows that there is a section of Finnish society largely inaccessible to the masses / proles / plebs (whatever term we would give them), that elite class is regarded with some degree of awe, a larger degree of envy, but overall a tacit acceptance by most Finns that is the way it is, and it´s ok.



To me that doesn´t equal a classless society.

BTW now is a good time to raise the issue of the Roma.
Can someone explain how a classless society such as Finland still manages to have an underclass?

[EP]

In what way they are an underclass? They have similar opportunities to education, similar housing, similar everything. I even know a Roma lawyer. When I was a child they were really "wandering people", and every summer a certain extended family camped on a nearby field. That was fun.

In 1960´s there was an extensive program to house them and get their children into school. Housing was not a problem, the school was. And still today is to some extent.

[FinnGuyHelsinki]

Social status can be earned, I never said it can´t ... but the likelyhood of being able to earn a high social status is greatly enhanced if your family has a high social standing to start with.

As mentioned by Bubba, the desire to attend the Independence day ball ...to see how the other half lives.... to me ahows that there is a section of Finnish society largely inaccessible to the masses / proles / plebs (whatever term we would give them), that elite class is regarded with some degree of awe, a larger degree of envy, but overall a tacit acceptance by most Finns that is the way it is, and it´s ok.

To me that doesn´t equal a classless society.

Can someone explain how a classless society such as Finland still manages to have an underclass?

By that definition, every society on earth has a class system. From the most minute tribe to superpowers, all of them have some hierarchy and the concept of parents providing for their children is universal.

A couple of quotes from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_system :

"In class society class is a key feature of life, and the cause and consequence of an individual's class often deeply scores their life."
"In so-called non-stratified societies or acephalous societies, there is no concept of social class, power, or hierarchy beyond temporary or limited social statuses. In such societies, every individual has a roughly equal social standing in most situations."

It's very common for one's background to not have such an impact that it would keep one down. Just think of the number of academics, famous artists, members of parliament, multi-millionaires,... there are whose parents and/or grandparents were small scale farmers. Regardless of background, pretty much all the options are open, or not ruled out. Obviously that doesn't mean that all events and places are open for everyone or that everyone would have a completely equal standing in society (when/where was that ever the case?). I'd be interested in hearing what are the classes that Finland as the class society has. Low, middle, high? The white and the red/'Herrat', 'duunarit'? Ones having an invitation to president's independence day reception and the rest? ...

[littlefrank]

By that definition, every society on earth has a class system. From the most minute tribe to superpowers, all of them have some hierarchy and the concept of parents providing for their children is universal.

All Sinkala has stated is that if you are born into the 'elite', then your chances of attaining a position of power is not only greatly enhanced but 'expected'. I do not see how you have interpreted his definition otherwise. While all societies may have hierarchical 'power systems' they can be based on matriarchy, patriarchy and age. However in most western European societies hierarchies are based on 'class', which historically was based on 'land', the more land you had the further up the class system you were, your hands were not dirtied by making money by mercantilism, you did not need to trade, you had inherited wealth, sons of aristocrats either went into the army or the church they did not go into the 'professions'. This is why the first thing that people who had made money by 'trade' bought land, because it gave them social distinction. But they were looked down on by the older aristocratic families and still are in Britain has the nouveau riche. It must be remembered though, all societies based on class are not hermetically sealed, they have always absorbed a certain amount of people from other classes, either through marriage or talent.

When Finland achieved independence a section of the elite wanted to install a King, after all what's the point of being an elite if you do not have a figurehead the proles and peasants can bow and scrape to and the elite can distinguish themselves by being closer to that figurehead. Finland decided to have a President instead and instituted the Presidents Ball where the 'great and the good' gathered to pay homage to themselves. Finnish society does not have the rigorous class lines of Britain because of historical reasons, but it has always had an elite, modern Finnish society may be more fluid but the elite will always find their route easier, they do not need to network socially at the 'Ball', because they were born into that network.

[sinikala]

The absence of an aristocracy or a visible upper class does not mean that Finland lacks a class system.

You understand that you're pretty much talking about money there, right? Surely money can open doors anywhere, if you have enough, but I don't think that is the same as having a class system.

By that definition, every society on earth has a class system.

Thanks for agreeing. That is the point I was trying to get across. And that includes Finland. To claim there is no class system here is ludicrous.

It's very common for one's background to not have such an impact that it would keep one down. Just think of the number of academics, famous artists, members of parliament, multi-millionaires,... there are whose parents and/or grandparents were small scale farmers. Regardless of background, pretty much all the options are open, or not ruled out.

And that is no different to any other country. It doesn't mean that that the society is classless either.

But the issue is not prevention of the lower classes from improving their socio-economic status ... that happens everywhere Lords Coe & Branson show that... Sir Mick of Jagger & Sir Paul de Macca the list is endless.

What we are talking about is the existence of a more privileged class who have easier access to the top as their family has traditionally had wealth, status or power. If such people exist, and I'd say they do, then it's not a classless society... is it?

Obviously that doesn't mean that all events and places are open for everyone or that everyone would have a completely equal standing in society (when/where was that ever the case?).

You don't need to tell me that, I'm not the one saying Finland is a classless society.

I'd be interested in hearing what are the classes that Finland as the class society has. Low, middle, high? The white and the red/'Herrat', 'duunarit'? Ones having an invitation to president's independence day reception and the rest?

This isn't my country, I leave that to others ... or a later post.

[littlefrank]

By that definition, every society on earth has a class system.

Thanks for agreeing. That is the point I was trying to get across. And that includes Finland. To claim there is no class system here is ludicrous.

Then I was wrong about your interpretation, however to say that every society on earth has a class system is wrong, because of the reasons I outlined above i.e. matriarchal, patriarchal and societies governed by 'elders' are not class based.

[llewellyn]

Well, social mobility certainly is much higher in the Nordic countries than in the Uk and the good old US of A. That is your parents' social position is a much worse indicator of your own status in Scandinavia than in the UK and USA. This is probably because up to this very decade the school system really used to be universally good and universally free. I went to exactly the same school as the richer children in my area and competed in the same university entrance exams and had to pay around 130-200 marks per university study year (my parents pretty much didn't need to contribute a penny for my studies). Of course it still it is hugely important what background your parents have - and it is much more likely that if they be poorly educated they won't encourage their children so strongly to go for high academic achievements, but at least there won't be patently unfairs obstacles for poorer children (though this is now increasingly rapidly changing in front of our eyes). So we do have differences in social, economic and educational status, but I would think it would be absolutely fair to say that Finland is far less class ridden society than the UK. Surely no-one really disagrees?

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

No one would disagree that Finland and the other Nordics have a less rigid class system...And I think we would all agree that social mobility is easy here.

That is not the point though...It's whether Finland does or does not have a class system.

[EP]

It's whether Finland does or does not have a class system.

People have usually friends from all kind of phases of life. And particularly those from childhood and teenage years can be whatever "class" and nobody thinks about it. Also inside families some are hairdressers and plumbers, some are professors and doctors. All the same class, all work matters. Also my brother was the same "class" as me. He was a homeless derelict alcoholic.