Social Class

[Rob A.]

...

[llewellyn]

Of course there are big differences in education and wealth (also in the combination that you have lots of money and no education and vice versa), though not nearly as big differences as in the UK and the USA - but that does not in itself equal a highly class conscious society. There are many various attitudes to these differences and a great part of the population is placed in the indistinct middle, the educational system is moreover still free and still open (though this will soon change in many areas), and still quite competitive. Social mobility is still on a high level. Thus I would argue that though Finland naturally does have social classes, it is not a highly class conscious society. There is in fact quite widespread belief that we would somehow have a classless system, and though that is mistaken even false beliefs can powerfully affect the social reality and experience. Gordon Brown quipped this week in the prime minister's question time that the Tory inheritance tax policies must have been planned in the playing fields of Eton - there simply is nothing equivalent in Finland. I presume Jyrki Katainen went to Siilinjärvi (or whatever) comprenhensive school like everyone else in his area.

[biscayne]

To be honest, perhaps people don't insist on their "full academic title", but there is certainly something of an obsession with academic pigeon-holing. People often feel compelled to state whether someone was an "insönööri" or an "argronomi", etc, often smiling smugly as they talk of a relative, offspring, etc.... have you noticed that EP?

Have to say, I have found that the full academic title tends to be used. I've just come back from a year in Australia, was doing a research post-grad, and all the academic staff had multiple titles - double PhDs' etc - , but they were all addressed by under and post-grads alike as "Mary" or "Brian" or whatever. Back here, I'm finding that the academic staff are addressed with full title "Professor doctor Inkinen" etc. etc. I also agree that people do let you know who is "insonoori" etc. quite quickly. Plus the phone book still has the academic titles which you don't see in english-speaking countries, someone in the phonebook with the title Dr. means medical doctor and is there to help you identifiy an MD if you nee d to. Academic PhDs' are absolutely not in phonebooks, nor are "Mag." (masters degree holders) which they are in Finland, Germany and all of central europe, I can definitely say that in Ireland if you put that you have a masters' in the phonebook, you would just be considered a "ponce".

The other thing which was mentioned, was that since the 70's and the ties with the ex-Soviet Union, the interest in socialism in Finland etc., titles became less important and were dropped. Actually I disagree with that entirely. I lived in central-europe for 12 years and travelled to the other central and eastern-european countries for seminars and conferences very often, and found that the academic titles are of the UTMOST importance to people in "former socialist countries" (central/eastern europe). It seems to me, that just exactly because the system tried to get rid of the notion of "breeding" and "class", academia and academic titles became the "new class system" or "breeding". People will always try to differentiate themsleves from others, and if they can't do it through one means, they will do it through another. At confrences, myself and the other "westerners" (!!) always introduced ourselves by just our names, whereas the "easterners" always introduced themselves as "Magister Karl Novak" or "Doktor Magda Novak" or whatever, and the Finns always used full title too. Perhaps this is not across the board, but it's my experience.

[littlefrank]

The other thing which was mentioned, was that since the 70's and the ties with the ex-Soviet Union, the interest in socialism in Finland etc., titles became less important and were dropped. Actually I disagree with that entirely. I lived in central-europe for 12 years and travelled to the other central and eastern-european countries for seminars and conferences very often, and found that the academic titles are of the UTMOST importance to people in "former socialist countries" (central/eastern europe). It seems to me, that just exactly because the system tried to get rid of the notion of "breeding" and "class", academia and academic titles became the "new class system" or "breeding". People will always try to differentiate themsleves from others, and if they can't do it through one means, they will do it through another. At confrences, myself and the other "westerners" (!!) always introduced ourselves by just our names, whereas the "easterners" always introduced themselves as "Magister Karl Novak" or "Doktor Magda Novak" or whatever, and the Finns always used full title too. Perhaps this is not across the board, but it's my experience.

Could you clarify this a little please, it's of interest to me. Was your 12 years spent in the era of the Soviet Union or after it's collapse?

[biscayne]

After the collapse (shortly after and for 12 years), but, most of the people to whom I am referring would have been in their 40s and 50s at the time, so they would have grown up, been educated and received their degrees in the era of the Soviet Union/Iron Curtain, plus, even after the "collapse" of any system, it takes time for the thinking and practices of the "Old Guard" to change, so while the people I met were often progressive, their lives were still entrenched in the old system. I also found that the more "soviet" the country, the more the academic title was of importance. I lived in a very "softly socialistic" country, in my department we had a girl from Ukraine, and she was very much into it and always going on about how such and such a title earned you so many points etc., never mind whether you had experience or were competant. Again, this is just my experience, but I really have found the more "ex-commie" the nation, the more the academic title was a big thing.

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

Where exactly were you?

I was in Prague for 6 months about 9 years ago and didn't really experience that...but 6 months is a very short time.

[littlefrank]

After the collapse (shortly after and for 12 years), but, most of the people to whom I am referring would have been in their 40s and 50s at the time, so they would have grown up, been educated and received their degrees in the era of the Soviet Union/Iron Curtain, plus, even after the "collapse" of any system, it takes time for the thinking and practices of the "Old Guard" to change, so while the people I met were often progressive, their lives were still entrenched in the old system. I also found that the more "soviet" the country, the more the academic title was of importance. I lived in a very "softly socialistic" country, in my department we had a girl from Ukraine, and she was very much into it and always going on about how such and such a title earned you so many points etc., never mind whether you had experience or were competant. Again, this is just my experience, but I really have found the more "ex-commie" the nation, the more the academic title was a big thing.

So they would be in their 50's and 60's now, so more or less the same age group that Pursuivant was talking about in Finland, but this is the same in Britain, that age group grew up with parents who would have taught them to 'respect or defer' to people like doctors, teachers and other professionals and surely this would indicate that the Soviet system did indeed adopt the social structures of it's capitalist counterparts, titles, job grading, nepotism and wage differentials etc, so the older generation in the Soviet system would not have changed their attitudes that much.The Soviet system had a political elite, instead of a wealth based elite. But what about younger Comrades? Did Bubba meet younger people in Prague?

[TampereOwl]

Another example is the current PM ... the guy took 15 years to get his Master´s degree ... there´s taking the scenic route and then there´s taking the piss. The fact that his father was an influential professor of political science didn´t open any doors for him, did it? No siree.

I can't believe you'd tarnish his good name by suggesting that his success and continued employment is down to anything other than his incorruptibility as a man, his brilliance as a politician, and his inspirational leadership.

Shame on you, sir.

[littlefrank]

Another example is the current PM ... the guy took 15 years to get his Master´s degree ... there´s taking the scenic route and then there´s taking the piss. The fact that his father was an influential professor of political science didn´t open any doors for him, did it? No siree.

I can't believe you'd tarnish his good name by suggesting that his success and continued employment is down to anything other than his incorruptibility as a man, his brilliance as a politician, and his inspirational leadership.

Shame on you, sir.

[sinikala]

Another example is the current PM ... the guy took 15 years to get his Master´s degree ... there´s taking the scenic route and then there´s taking the piss. The fact that his father was an influential professor of political science didn´t open any doors for him, did it? No siree.

I can't believe you'd tarnish his good name by suggesting that his success and continued employment is down to anything other than his incorruptibility as a man, his brilliance as a politician, and his inspirational leadership.

Shame on you, sir.

<bog flushes self>

[EP]

I had never thought about the phone book so I had to check. Yes, there are some (not many) people who have their academic title there, but also some macons, nurses, construction workers, musicians and truck drivers have their occupations there.

[Bubba Elvis XIV]

But what about younger Comrades? Did Bubba meet younger people in Prague?

Well...I was working with people between the ages of about 14 - 40. The odd one was 50 or abouts.

[littlefrank]

But what about younger Comrades? Did Bubba meet younger people in Prague?

Well...I was working with people between the ages of about 14 - 40. The odd one was 50 or abouts.

Well when people reach 50 they do get kind of odd. But it would seem that the younger generation are not impressed so much by titles, but singers, so called film stars and non celebrities on Big Brother and Idols ...

Still those who are born into an elite tend not to SHOUTabout it.