grammar problem

[garoowood]

Kaikkien huhtikuun aikana profiiliaan päivittävien kesken arvomme 3 palkintopakettia.

I guess it supposes to be translated as: We will draw 3 prize packages for all the profiles updated in April.

But I am confused with the grammar in this sentence.
What I could figure out is: huhtikuun aikana--during April; arvomme 3 palkintopakettia--we draw 3 prize packages; päivittävien kesken--among updating.
Is kaikkien used to modify profiiliaan? Why not päivitetyn(or I should use plural form, and it is pävitettyien?)?. And profiiliaan is in partitive, why?
Can someone explain the grammar in this sentence in details to me?

[Upphew]

Kaikkien huhtikuun aikana profiiliaan päivittävien kesken arvomme 3 palkintopakettia.

I guess it supposes to be translated as: We will draw 3 prize packages for all the profiles updated in April.

But I am confused with the grammar in this sentence.
What I could figure out is: huhtikuun aikana--during April; arvomme 3 palkintopakettia--we draw 3 prize packages; päivittävien kesken--among updating.
Is kaikkien used to modify profiiliaan? Why not päivitetyn(or I should use plural form, and it is pävitettyien?)?. And profiiliaan is in partitive, why?
Can someone explain the grammar in this sentence in details to me?

You could say "Kaikkien huhtikuun aikana päivitettyjen profiilien kesken arvomme 3 palkintopakettia" but then the meaning would be closer to your translation, not the "We will draw 3 price packages among the people who update their profiles in April".

[Jukka Aho]

Kaikkien huhtikuun aikana profiiliaan päivittävien kesken arvomme 3 palkintopakettia.

I guess it supposes to be translated as: We will draw 3 prize packages for all the profiles updated in April.

[...]

Why not päivitetyn(or I should use plural form, and it is pävitettyien?)?. And profiiliaan is in partitive, why?
Can someone explain the grammar in this sentence in details to me?

The key here is figuring out that the VA-participle päivittävä, “updating” (used in the role of an adjective attribute), refers to “people/users/customers who update”. So “kaikkien päivittävien kesken” translates as “among all updating ones”, “among all [those people/users/customers] updating”, “among all those who update”.

Adding a word such as ihmiset, käyttäjät, or asiakkaat would make it a bit more obvious:

    Kaikkien huhtikuun aikana profiiliaan päivittävien käyttäjien kesken arvomme 3 palkintopakettia.

Adjectives and participles are often used this way: referring to entities who are defined primarily by having some quality (as described by the adjective or the participle) while leaving out the implied headword they would attribute.

    Ota kiinni kaikki karanneet eläimet. Laita juoksevat häkkiin A ja lentävät häkkiin B.
    Kaikki synnyttäneet saavat äitiyspakkauksen.
    Punaiset taistelivat valkoisia vastaan.
    Myöhästyneiden on ilmoitettava saapumisestaan välittömästi.
    Pahalta haisevien pitää mennä suihkuun.

[Rob A.]

Adding a word such as ihmiset, käyttäjät, or asiakkaat would make it a bit more obvious:

    Kaikkien huhtikuun aikana profiiliaan päivittävien käyttäjien kesken arvomme 3 palkintopakettia.

Adjectives and participles are often used this way: referring to entities who are defined primarily by having some quality (as described by the adjective or the participle) while leaving out the implied headword they would attribute.

Yes...nominalizing an adjective....an easy thing to forget when parsing a sentence...

I'm wondering, though, about the word profiiliaan....it appears to be a singular form with a possessive ending ...."their profile"..... I suppose this is getting into the realm of countable/uncountable nouns....but would it not sound better to use the word, "profiilejaan"????..."their profiles"... But, maybe this is just as likely to imply each individual has more than one profile....

[Jukka Aho]

I'm wondering, though, about the word profiiliaan....it appears to be a singular form with a possessive ending ...."their profile"..... I suppose this is getting into the realm of countable/uncountable nouns....but would it not sound better to use the word, "profiilejaan"????..."their profiles"... But, maybe this is just as likely to imply each individual has more than one profile.... :?

Yes, I think using the plural form would strongly suggest each user has several profiles, whereas with the singular the expectation is there’s only one for each.

[Rob A.]

On further thought, I think, "kaikkien", is simply the genitive plural form of the English pronoun, "all", having, in this instance, the sense of "each person"....right ???

And I suppose the phrase, Kaikkien huhtikuun aikana profiiliaan päivittävien kesken.... could be stated this way, [which would, perhaps, make it absolutely clear that we are referring to individuals??]:

Jokaisen huhtikuun aikana profiiliaan päivittävän kesken........

Any grammatical screw-ups with this?....

In English. some of these constructions have become a bit awkward and non-PC these days.... You have to try to avoid the use of any "sexist" pronouns....

A few years ago legal documents used to carry an "interpretation" that "his" is to be construed as meaning, "her", as well, within the context. Now I believe all jurisdictions...well, at least in Canada, ....have statutory interpretation legislation that covers this.... Finnish, and I guess the other Finnic languages, solved this "issue" eons ago on "Day One" of the language...

[Jukka Aho]

On further thought, I think, "kaikkien", is simply the genitive plural form of the English pronoun, "all", having, in this instance, the sense of "each person"....right ???

And I suppose the phrase, Kaikkien huhtikuun aikana profiiliaan päivittävien kesken.... could be stated this way, [which would, perhaps, make it absolutely clear that we are referring to individuals??]:

Jokaisen huhtikuun aikana profiiliaan päivittävän kesken........

Any grammatical screw-ups with this?....:D

The idea is not wrong as such... but I think there’s now a slight clash between jokaisen, which has its “focus” on a single individual, and kesken, which means “among”. So how can lots be cast and prizes drawn “among” each individual, when an individual is not a group. It sounds a bit weird, as if the results of the sweepstakes would be determined with each individual “among themselves”, or something.

Google says:

• jokaisen kesken (200 hits)
• kaikkien kesken (27,400 hits)

[Rob A.]

On further thought, I think, "kaikkien", is simply the genitive plural form of the English pronoun, "all", having, in this instance, the sense of "each person"....right ???

And I suppose the phrase, Kaikkien huhtikuun aikana profiiliaan päivittävien kesken.... could be stated this way, [which would, perhaps, make it absolutely clear that we are referring to individuals??]:

Jokaisen huhtikuun aikana profiiliaan päivittävän kesken........

Any grammatical screw-ups with this?....

The idea is not wrong as such... but I think there’s now a slight clash between jokaisen, which has its “focus” on a single individual, and kesken, which means “among”. So how can lots be cast and prizes drawn “among” each individual, when an individual is not a group. It sounds a bit weird, as if the results of the sweepstakes would be determined with each individual “among themselves”, or something.

Google says:

• jokaisen kesken (200 hits)
• kaikkien kesken (27,400 hits)

Thanks.... it seems the English word "everyone" can be used in a slightly broader way than the Finnish word, "jokainen", even though the English word always requires a singular verb..... And I must say the expression, "Among everyone who has...", does sound slighty less "correct" than "Among all who have...." Maybe I'm starting to slip into colloquial usage...

I also noticed in wiktionary, the entry for jokainen carried the plural forms in brackets, and the notation that their usage is rare and pretty well restricted to use with words having only plural forms....I guess an example would be, "jokaiset housut"....

[Jukka Aho]

I also noticed in wiktionary, the entry for jokainen carried the plural forms in brackets, and the notation that their usage is rare and pretty well restricted to use with words having only plural forms....I guess an example would be, "jokaiset housut"....:D

Yep, that sounds about correct.

All this talk about jokainen reminded me of this:



— Kato! Mä duunasin Stringin Every Bread You Take’istä tämmösen käännöksen, kato...
— Niin kuka on String?
— No se on se Boliisin basisti.
— Ää(rrgh), se on se! Mä en muistanu vaan sitä... joo!
— Kato, lue sä toi englan... englanninkielellä, mä luen sen [käännöksen] sulle...
— Joo, okei... ”Every bread you take.”
— Jokainen leipä jonka otat.
— ”Every move you make.”
— Jokainen leffa jonka duunaat.
— ”Every step you take.”
— Joka...jokainen rappu jon(ka) sä väsäät.
— ”I’ll be watching you.”
— Mä tuun kellotta(ma)an sua.
— Tää on ihan hel-vetin hyvä!
— Ei ku hei kundit, ihan oikeesti, mähän voin hioo sitä vielä jos te eette diggaa!
— Tota et hio, kato se tulee tehdyn tuntunen! Nyt vedetään!
— Yy, kaa, koo, nee! [...]

[Rob A.]

All this talk about jokainen reminded me of this:



....

— Joo, okei... ”Every bread you take.”
— Jokainen leipä jonka otat.
— ”Every move you make.”
— Jokainen leffa jonka duunaat.
— ”Every step you take.”
— Joka...jokainen rappu jon(ka) sä väsäät.
— ”I’ll be watching you.”
— Mä tuun kellotta(ma)an sua.

Ahhh, yes, this old number by "The Police"... Sort of a woman's nightmare...aka "The Lament of a Stalker"....

And somehow in Finnish in turns into something about someone stealing bread.....

[Jukka Aho]

Ahhh, yes, this old number by "The Police"... Sort of a woman's nightmare...aka "The Lament of a Stalker"....:D

I read Gordon Sumner actually wrote it that way, then was aghast as the general public took it as a romantic love song.

And somehow in Finnish in turns into something about someone stealing bread..... :lol:

The “translation” is a bit funky in other ways too...

“I’ll be watching you.”
Mä tuun kellottaan sua!

(or Minä tulen kellottamaan sinua in standard written Finnish)

[garoowood]

Thanks Jukka, I forgot the participles can be used as nouns.

But why is profiilia in partitive?

[Jukka Aho]

Thanks Jukka, I forgot the participles can be used as nouns.

But why is profiilia in partitive?

“All those updating their profile” are assumed to update only some of the things in it; perhaps touching only select fields in their profile (so its a partial update), not to revamp their profile completely. Or at least a partial update is sufficient for entering the sweepstakes.

[Rob A.]

Joo, okei... ”Every bread you take.”
— Jokainen leipä jonka otat.
— ”Every move you make.”
— Jokainen leffa jonka duunaat.
— ”Every step you take.”
— Joka...jokainen rappu jon(ka) sä väsäät.
— ”I’ll be watching you.”
— Mä tuun kellotta(ma)an sua.

Actually the English translation doesn't seem to properly capture the humour in this particular Finnish version:

"Every bread you take.
Every movie you make.
Every step (...in the sense of a step in a staircase...??) you build (???)
I'll be watching you {....in the sense of putting a wristwatch on you...???)"

How's that???

Tää on ihan hel-vetin hyvä!

"This is hellish good!" ....Hmmm...I'm not so sure about that....

[Jukka Aho]

Actually the English translation doesn't seem to properly capture the humour in this particular Finnish version:

You’re looking at it the wrong way... the band members in that skit are translating the song from English to Finnish, of course. That’s what the dialogue is all about.