Making bread in a Breadmaker

[DMC]

I recently got a Panasonic 255 breadmaker. I chose this model (which I had to import as it isn't sold in Finland) because it seemed to get the best reviews. I have tried different recipes and different flours (about 10kg so far) but I have yet to produce a good loaf. Instead the bread comes out very rubbery and after a bite or two I throw it away. Maybe the ingredients available here are sufficiently different that they don't suit the recipes that came with the machine, or maybe I am doing something stupid. Does anyone have any tips?

[ajl]

So which flours, what kind of recipes/programmes, what kinds/amounts of yeast? I always
do better with some concrete examples. Can you change the programming so that it
can modify the rise/knead times? (My only experience is having gotten my mom a breadmaker
(yes, it seemed like she would really like it) but I made 99% of the loaves produced by the
machine. It is now at least 8 years old, probably 10. Loaves tasted fine, texture fine,
just nowhere as good as having a real bread oven (yes, I'd consider that a worthwhile thing
to get, wood burning, yadda yadda)).

Yeast is different here, imo. The organic eggs here are wonderful, nothing like the US
standard eggs..
(And my american type pancakes turn out just fine, using most kinds of flour,
just gotta be picky about the baking powder brand, some taste like metal but
I had to adjust my ratios to use the eggs we get here).

[rinso]

Instead the bread comes out very rubbery

Without knowing your recipe (you might be using strange ingredients) I guess it is because the yeast is not mixed in well enough and/or the rising time is to short. I suggest you increase the different times (except the baking time) and see if it is an improvement.

[Rosamunda]

There was a megathread on bread and breadmaking machines on here a year or two ago. The poster was tearing his hair out trying to get it right and he even uploaded some photos of all his efforts! Lots of FF posters volunteered their opinions, I don't remember them all. In the end he got the machine replaced as there seemed to be a problem with it.

- Start by making a basic white loaf and follow the manufacturer's instructions to the letter. If it says use water at 34 degs then use water at 34 degs (not 35 degs).
- Check the best before date on your yeast.
- Which flour are you using: Hiivaleipävehnäjauho - is strong plain flour. http://www.dlc.fi/~marianna/gourmet/i_flours.htm#fine_f
- Which yeast are you using?

- Are you using the timer to make the bread in the night or are you making it as soon as you put in the ingredients?

What kind of loaf are you used to eating? You won't, for example, replicate an industrial loaf in a breadmachine. if you usually buy the stuff that comes sliced and wrapped in plastic then for sure homemade bread will be different.

[DMC]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

ajl : I have mainly used Eldorado 3-viljan sämpyläjauho. Sometimes mixed with some Pirkka Ruisjauho. I have also tried Eldorado hiivaleipäjauho. For a special dietary requirement I have tried Finax Lagprotein Mjölmix and some other speciality mixes. I have mainly been using recipes in the book that came with the breadmaker or the mixes, plus some experiments to try and improve things. I have used the regular bake, rapid bake, wholemeal and glutein-free programmes. It isn't possible to change the rise/knead times directly, only by selecting a different programme. I have tried all 3 different loaf sizes, and 2 of the 3 crust settings. I have mainly used Belbake dried yeast, though I have also tried fresh yeast, Sunnuntai Kuivahiiva, and another dried yeast that I don't remember the name of. None of the recipes I have tried have included eggs.
A typical attempt would be: 1 teaspoon yeast, 475g of flour (Eldorado 3-viljan sämpyläjauho), 1.5 teaspoons sugar, 25g butter, 1.25 teaspoon salt, 340 ml water, using the wholemeal bake setting. This takes 5 hours to produce something that goes straight in the bin.
Oh, and I do have a real, wood-burning bread oven although I have never used it. I do make bread in the electric oven and that turns out OK.

Rinso : I can't directly change the times on this machine, only by selecting a different programme. I have done that, but haven't yet tried all of the available settings. Perhaps I'll try some more.

Penelope : I found the thread you mentioned, thanks. I guess it is possible that my machine is also faulty, which would be a pain as I had it sent over from the UK. I have tried making the simplest possible loaf sticking exactly to the recipe. I have also tried variations to try and find something that works. My latest yeast is best before 08 2011 so no problems there. I haven't tried using the timer yet. I don't usually eat sliced white bread. I sometimes make my own, or buy a rustic-style brown (wholemeal?) loaf - can't remember what it is called and I haven't bought one for a while as I keep hoping to have bread from the breadmaker.

[Rosamunda]

I think you should persist in getting the basic white loaf right before you try using other flours and specialty loaves. If you can't get the basic white loaf to work then chances are nothing else will work either.
Fresh yeast won't work in a breadmachine.
The temperature of the water is important (too hot will kill the yeast, too cold and it won't activate the yeast).
I found a special Fast Action active dried yeast for breadmachines in the UK and got best results with that. Haven't found the same here but Sunnuntai works OK.
If you want to use whole grain flour then I would suggest cutting it 50/50 will hiivaleipäjauho.
Generally, I think it is best to stick to the recipes in the manual that comes with the machine. I didn't get very good results when I tried experimenting (but I have the Kenwood).

Nowadays I tend to use the breadmaker for mixing the dough, kneading and proving. Then I remove from the machine, let it prove on a baking try or in a tin and bake in the oven. The results are better and we just got sick of all our bread being the same shape But at the mökki I don't have a choice so it bakes in the machine.

[DMC]

You may be right about getting the white loaf right first; it is just that I don't actually want white bread.
The manual is pretty vague about water temperature. It just says to use warm water if using rapid, rye or glutein-free settings in a cold room, or use chilled water if using rye or french settings in a hot room. What temperature is warm or chilled water, or a hot or cold room? It seems a bit hit or miss. What temperature water do you use?
Yes, I discovered that fresh yeast doesn't work in a machine. It is just that when the machine came the only yeast I had in the house was fresh, so I tried that.
I'll try using the machine just for mixing, kneading & proving and see if the result is any better.

[Pursuivant]

Maybe the best reviews were from people with a taste for rubbery bread? Theres also those ready-made mixes that have the yeast etc. in, "just add water" - usually for making rolls.

[rinso]

Oh, and I do have a real, wood-burning bread oven

Why the hell do you use a bread maker than?
You have the perfect equipment and then decide to use something far inferior.

Do you put in the water first and the yeast last (on top)?
If the yeast comes in contact with water far before the mixing starts, you get funny results.

For the yeast to work, the temperature needs to be between 28 and 42 degrees. So handwarm (36) is perfect.
If the machine has a timer to start in the middle of the night, it probably heats the mixure to 36 degrees or so during mixing.
If that is broken, the dough might not rise at all before baking.

[Mook]

The temperature is more todo with the yeast than anything else. Heating the milk/water to around 38 degrees helps a bit.

Still, I've always had a problem that it a) doesn't rise properly or b) collapses before the end

[DMC]

I want to use a breadmaker to save time and reduce work. There is no way I can afford the time needed to make all our bread in the wood-burning oven.

The order of the ingredients depends on the flour. For normal flour the yeast goes in first and the liquid last. For glutein-free flour the order is reversed.

I haven't been measuring the water temperature with a thermometer, but when I have used "warm" water I have assumed that means body temperature.

[rinso]

The order of the ingredients depends on the flour. For normal flour the yeast goes in first and the liquid last. For glutein-free flour the order is reversed.

that might be the problem.
try to reverse the order for normal flour
(forget the gluten free bread as long as you cannot control the normal loaves. gluten free baking is an art in itself)

[Rosamunda]

The Kenwood says liquids (water and/or milk) should be at 32-35 degs C

I always put the liquids in first (I rarely use milk but I sometimes use some olive oil) then the flour on top so it completely covers the liquids, and then put the salt & sugar on top of the flour in opposite corners and finally the yeast goes in a shallow dip in the middle of the flour. Nearly all the recipes I use follow the same basic method.

My Kenwood manual contains a troubleshooting guide. EG:

Not rising enough: liquid too hot; too much salt; yeast got wet before process started.

Top and sides cave in: too much liquid; too much yeast; high humidity/warm weather

Collapsed while baking: exceeded capacity of the pan; machine was opened, knocked or jolted during rising; not enough salt used; too much yeast

Dense Texture: too much flour; not wnough yeast; not enough sugar

etc etc etc (3 pages of causes and solutions)

I find the results are generally better when I set the timer and the ingredients stand for several hours before the process starts. I assume this is because ALL the ingredients are at the same temperature. I don't think you can guestimate the amounts of flour/liquid/salt/sugar and yeast. It is quite critical to get the proportions right.

[DMC]

Thanks Penelope. I just found a Kenwood manual online, so I'll study that and see if I can get any hints. My machine's manual doesn't have such detailed information. I'll also try making a loaf using the timer to see if that helps.
It seems you put the ingredients into the machine in the opposite order to me, but I am following the order given in my manual so I assume that is correct for this machine.
I have taken your advice and I am currently trying the most basic white bread recipe. having been super-pernickety in measuring all the ingredients. Results due about 5pm!

[DMC]

that might be the problem.
try to reverse the order for normal flour
(forget the gluten free bread as long as you cannot control the normal loaves. gluten free baking is an art in itself)

I can try reversing the order of course, but the order I have been using is the order given in the manual for this machine. Is there a good reason why I should go against that?
I have been concentrating on normal bread, but the glutein free bread is more important to me than the normal bread and is the reason I bought the machine. If I could just bake that it would be OK. Actually it isn't glutein-free per se, but is similar. All the flours I can use are glutein-free, but I can't use all glutein-free flours. Life gets complicated sometimes.